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Why are Women's Bodies Public Domain?

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A few years ago, as I waited in line for a stall in a public bathroom, a mother came in with her young son. No big deal; this happens all the time. However, I was beyond dismayed when my turn came and the kid stuck his head under my stall door while I used the toilet. His mom immeidately yelled at him to get back over to the sink so she could wash his hands, and a thought process unfurled itself in my head: Perhaps one of the reasons that women's bodies are always on display Western culture while men's are private and guarded fiercely has as much to do with childhood as it does with the patriarchal sexualization of the female figure.

Think about it: when children grow up, they tend to be with their mothers. Boys and girls enter women's bathrooms, women's fitting rooms, and women's locker rooms. They are used to being around all kinds of women in various states of undress, even if they don't always see them. At the same time, since fathers are not generally the primary caretakers of children, girls rarely enter men's bathrooms, men's fitting rooms, and especially men's locker rooms. In fact, if a dad brought his daughter with him into some of the places that a mom would bring her son, people would react with horror, as though the idea of a girl (accidentally) seeing a naked men is somehow perverse although if a boy (accidentally) sees a naked woman, people just shrug. More commonly, I notice desperate fathers with daughters beg perfect strangers to bring their daughters to the women's bathroom if they are out and their children need to use a toilet. I concluded thus that everyone accepts nude women as a fact of life and that's just how it is. Female and male, we grow up comfortable with female nudity. Male nudity, on the other hand, is not public domain and is not for everyone's eyes to consume.

As I read the latest exploits of my friend Alex and her two kids over at Formula Fed and Flexible Parenting, I came across the following aside:

Meanwhile the boys had gotten dressed and popped into my room. Fortunately any sense of privacy I may have had disappeared when I had that first transvaginal ultrasound almost exactly 6 years ago. Perhaps in the checklist... I [was] given in our pre-conception appointment there needed to be a question that read, "Are willing to have an audience when you get dressed for the next 5+ years?"

Aha! This is exactly what I've been thinking. Motherhood itself really takes away that aspect that women's bodies are our own. Just being pregnant and then the act of childbirth itself requires many people to look at and into our genitals. (In fact, when my sister told me last week that she was pregnant, I asked her if she planned to breastfeed. She said she wanted to, but was afraid that it would be hard. I assured her that there would be lots of people who could help her so she should at least try it, and then she snapped, "I don't want strangers seeing my boobs!" We both cracked up at that, as she realized that everyone and his/her uncle would be poking and prodding her in the next few months and by then, who would care if yet another person gazed upon her bosoms?) Then, as women spend time doing every day chores and other activities with kids, they get used to seeing their mom (and maybe other women) changing, as I rambled about earlier.

Throw race and ethnicity into the mix, and we see how the public domain of women's bodies becomes even more entrenched in a negative way. Diary of an Anxious Black Woman cites a post by Michael Anthony Noir at the Vibe blog Critical Noir about a Salon.com article by Erin Aubrey Kaplan about Michelle Obama's butt. In both Noir's post and the discussion ensuing at Diary of an Anxious Black Woman, writers point out that the history of black women's bodies includes the idea that "the idea that black women's bodies were accessible and available to any--and all" (Noir), or more succinctly, as one of my favorite former bloggers Pseudo-Adrienne said at Diary:

Yeah, nevermind her Ivy League education, her career, and her devotion to her children and husband.

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gabi 5 pts

I also don't think women's bodies are more appealing then men's. It is ages and ages of showing and describing female bodies, in art, literature, photograpy, movies, which simply has made us used to it. At the same time the male body has been shrouded in mystery (although not in ancient times), and that's why the penis is 'shocking' and the rest of the male body considered less appealing, beautiful, erotic or whatever you want to call it. I am convinced that if we would have seen male nudity just as frequent as female nudity, we would have a different opinion about it. 

Just take a good look at the naked male body: his muscles, his bone structure, his veins, the shape of his hips and his buttocks, his legs, his wrists, and his penis, and you will see it is just as fascinating, beautiful and erotic as a female body. 

----

Three grand essentials for happiness in this life are something to do, something to love and something to hope for.

www.nakedmenhappywomen.wordpress.com ( http://www.nakedmenhappywomen.wordpress.com )

AllThingsToNoOne 5 pts

Interesting theory. 

I was raised in a home where I never saw either of my parents nude.  My mother was uncomfortable with it   However, my brother and I were very close and saw each other's nude bodies all the time.  (not in a sexualized way, we were only a year apart in age)  For me, at least, the male body wasn't quite shrouded in mystery. 

Some posters already made the points about why we bring our young sons into the bathroom with us,so I won't reiterate that point.  I did it until my sons were uncomfortable with it.  I made sure; however, that I stood outside the mens bathroom until they were done. 

I have always been very open with my sons about being able to discuss sexuality and respect for the bodies of others as well as their own.  They're teens now and we freely discuss such topics such as nudity, body image, and respect.  One thing I have noticed about my sons is that they have a lot more respect for women and sexuality than many of their friends and seem to not care as much about what their girlfriends look like.

ninepoems 5 pts

Wow. This is definitely an interesting topic. I don’t know what to think actually. I don’t have any children and so I haven’t had to consider the options. However, I have been a woman in a bathroom annoyed that there were little boys in there. Truthfully though, I think my annoyance was at the fathers. Assuming, and that’s a big assumption, that they were there to help with the task and chose not to. I’ve seen that before (while not in the bathroom) where moms are taking their boys off to go potty while the dad just hangs out. For whatever reason that just angers me. But I digress. I definitely grew up in a household where my brother and I saw my mom naked, but never sawmy dad that way. For whatever reason the double standard pissed me off as I grew older. NOT that I really wanted to see my dad naked, but you get my point. Furthermore, I always found it completely ridiculous that my father made a really huge deal out of not being able to take my little sister anywhere alone in case he or she had to go to the bathroom. She grew up in the 90s, before we had family bathrooms. It completely interfered in our lives. I had to gowith him or mom, or it just wasn’t possible for them to go at all.

There was discussion above about breastfeeding that intrigued me. There is definitely a contradiction in our society about breasts. Suzanne’s post makes a lot of sense about how women’s bodies, because of childbirth and culture, is the public domain, but the second you try to use your body for what it’s really for in public, people have a problem. I think that’s because while breasts are obviously very functional the general public doesn’t perceive them that way. They are still sex objects. I bet that if a woman was to run through the mall topless people would more likely laugh and feel more at ease than they would watching a woman plop a boob out and feed her baby in the food court. It’s very strange. 

Rochelle | Nine*Poems Blog ( http://ninepoems.com ) | Twitter ( http://www.twitter.com/ninepoems )

biggirlblue 5 pts

I can't believe how absorbing this post and comments are. It has definitely given me some insight into my own beliefs.

I have been interrupted in bathroom stalls by young boys and girls. I never thought it was out of curiosity. I just assumed their parents hadn't taught them proper public bathroom etiquette yet (knock to see if someone is in there and not look). 

As for bathing with children, I have my own trust issues I guess with that and don't think it should happen after a certain age. Yes, more men than women. No one thinks it will happen to them, until it does. Someone mentioned that the incidence is "less than 1% of the population". I somehow think this is inaccurate; perhaps it less than 1% of those convicted of these crimes are interested in p-p children. And considering how many probably never get reported I imagine it is much higher.

We watch a lot of late evening tv and I'm always amused how bums are blurred but women's breasts are perfectly acceptable.

This is definitely an interesting discussion. 

Moe
Big Girl Blue ( http://biggirlblue.blogspot.com ), M.E. Wood lens ( http://www.squidoo.com/mewood ),
Large and Lovely ( http://largeandlovely.bellaonline.com ), Five Favorite Things ( http://www.plusshe.com )

janarayne 5 pts

This has been a very interesting discussion.  My husband and I were comfortably naked around our two daughters and they with us all the years they were growing up. Only during their puberty years did they cover up but then relaxed again once they were comfortable with their new figures. They are now young adults secure with their bodies and their sexuality and comfortable with women's place in society sexually.  I concur with April; we never really thought of it as an issue and all turned out well.  Jana Rayne  www.awomansgoodnight.com 

MommyNamedApril 5 pts

My husband and I are very naked people.  We equally dress, undress, shower, etc. in front of our kids.  We both take the kids into mens/womens' restrooms, depending on who's available, with no real preference for one. 

So far we have two boys, and they're both young, but I suspect things will remain as they are even when the kids get older and if we have a girl.  I believe that this comfort level (which includes public breastfeeding) stems from both our families having been very comfortable with nakedness and sexuality.  I am glad for it, and really didn't much think of it as an issue until reading your post.

 Thanks for the enlightenment :-)

April

www.AprilsLittleFamily.blogspot.com ( http://www.AprilsLittleFamily.blogspot.com )

Super Jive 5 pts

Yeah, my three-year-old goes into the men's room with her father quite a lot. I am not worried about her seeing penises (which I think is rather unlikely anyway), but if she did, I don't think it would freak her out too much. She knows that men have penises, and that they pee out of them. Of course I trust her father to protect her from someone who is acting "weird" the same way I would protect her in the ladies room if someone was being inappropriate in there.

SJ

Blogher Pop Culture Editor ( http://www.blogher.com/blog/super-jive ) | I, Asshole ( http://iasshole.org )

Bill Cammack 5 pts

Women's bodies have to be "promoted as sexy and sexual", because that's how men choose women for dating ( http://billcammack.com/2008/12/05/why-women-have-t... ).  I've never heard any guy EVER say that he selected a woman to be his girlfriend SPECIFICALLY because she was so physically unattractive to him. :)

What I'm "enjoying" about this conversation is that the 'facts' behind this phenomenon are so deeply ingrained that I can't find the right words to explain it to y'all. :D  It's like trying to explain to you how I breathe.  I don't know.  I just breathe.  I don't TRY to breathe.

If you look at prostitution, there's a booming industry for women to receive money for having sex with men.  There's almost ZERO industry for men to receive money for having sex with women.  Explain that. :)

You just can't find equality in every single aspect of life.

~ Bill ( http://billcammack.com )
I blog at billcammack.com ( http://billcammack.com )

Suzanne 5 pts

Not that I can share a personal experience with this, but I have to strongly disagree with your friend's thoughts on boys growing up seeing each other nude in the locker room. Maybe jocks and other very strong men were comfortable wandering around, but boys face body pressures, too - they are just different from women. Plus, I think there's rampant concern with adolescent boys and nudity in terms of being labeled "homos" and bullied. A locker room is the "nerdy" boy's WORST nightmare. My husband (and many of his friends) confirms this.

Suzanne Reisman ( http://www.blogher.com/member/suzanne-reisman ), Contributing Editor - Feminism & Gender ( http://blogher.org/topic/feminism-gender )
Campaign for Unshaved Snatch (CUSS) & Other Rants ( http://cussandotherrants.com/ )

Suzanne 5 pts

It's gone in so many ways and brought up so many nuances and permutations. It's really exciting to read everyone's comments and reflect on the different (and similar) perspectives.

Suzanne Reisman ( http://www.blogher.com/member/suzanne-reisman ), Contributing Editor - Feminism & Gender ( http://blogher.org/topic/feminism-gender )
Campaign for Unshaved Snatch (CUSS) & Other Rants ( http://cussandotherrants.com/ )

ramyana 5 pts

Made me think in a total different perspective. Thought provoking.

http://brightbeginnings-rayma.blogspot.com/

ramyana 5 pts

Exactly the same for me. With two young children, I don't have privacy to do anything on my own. While my husband enjoys his privacy in the morning, I pretty much do everything in front of kids before getting ready to work because I am multi-tasking getting them ready in the same time. Same with the public restrooms and everything else.

http://brightbeginnings-rayma.blogspot.com/

Nordette Adams 6 pts

Dana, I remember when my son was under seven and I was still married, I drove from Atlanta, Ga., to Augusta at night without my husband and had to stop at a state rest area.  I was walking into the women's room with my son when the male attendant at the rest stop told me the bathroom was for females only and it was against the law for me to take my son in with me.  I was livid.  I had to send him into the men's room alone and was probably made more edgy by the creepiness of the male attendant who insisted he go alone. Like you, I thought the women's bathroom would be safer for a young boy, especially at night in the middle of nowhere and if he were accompanied by his mother.  I've probably seen too many crime TV shows. 

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is WSATA ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ), and she's finally taken the dive into Tw ( http://twitter.com/nordette_verite )

Nordette Adams 6 pts

As I read this excellent post, Suzanne, I recalled an article I read back in the 80s in Omni Magazine, don't know if it's still around, that society is so conditioned to viewing women as sex objects that it's not uncommon for young girls to feel aroused not by male bodies but by female bodies because that's the body promoted as sexy and sexual. The female body is the one associated with sex. 

Maybe it's an unexplored facet of what's behind the bishonen craze phenomena. Bishonen ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bish%C5%8Dnen ) look more like girls, and while they are associated with Asian girls, I've written before (when I was the Jerseygoddess) that it's similar also to teenage girls liking teen boy idols who are feminine.  Remember how crazy young girls went year before last for the girlish Sanjaya during American idol?

As I write I'm considering your thoughts on the female body being everywhere in various states of undress. 

I've noticed that sometimes in movies a woman's body may be completely exposed, but the male body is never seen in that same movie below the waist, and so I've wondered, as you have in this post, is there something that we're supposed to think is traumatizing about seeing male genitalia? 

What we see instead is the undercover penis, phallic symbols everywhere, the assertion of male power through subliminal messaging perhaps.

Ooh, let me stop.  

Nordette ( http://blogher.org/blog/nordette ) is a Contributing Editor with BlogHer.com whose personal blog is WSATA ( http://bigsole.blogspot.com ), and she's finally taken the dive into Tw ( http://twitter.com/nordette_verite )

MLOKnitting 5 pts

While I was in college I did an internship with the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.  The reality is that less than 1% of the population is predatory towards pre-pubescent children.  (Adolescents are a whole other matter with cultural confusion as to this.)  Because it is so rare, the news gloms onto it.  There are actually more real dangers to your children than this one.  The group most likely to be victimized by strangers are runaways / throwaways.

As to when the shift from women being sexual creatures?  The Victorian Era had a great deal to do with that particular issue of repressed female sexuality.

The truth is that much of American culture (much of this is not true in non-English speaking cultures) is completely hung up on nudity and sex.  Because of this hang up we are suspect of men when we should not be.  And, there is a growing tendency to be wary of women as well.  

Personally, I think that American culture makes "dirty" both men and women's bodies in different ways - and have been pushing sexualization younger and younger to feed unfounded fears in the population.

MLO / Melissa

dsbrennan 5 pts

I have to agree with some of the other posters - a) there are many more male sexual predators out there, which makes bringing children into male bathrooms or changing rooms creepier.  It also means that sending a young boy into a male bathroom unattended is a lot riskier than sending a young girl into a woman's room unattended.  b) males don't really get the privacy of a stall in their bathroom, which might make it difficult for a little girl who has to go!

I think it's mostly just practicalilty, not some sort of cultural sexism...

-------------------------
http://dsbrennan.com
http://dsbrennan.etsy.com
http://dsbrennan.blogspot.com

missbritt 5 pts

My kids - both my son and my daughter - see me naked constantly.  It doesn't bother me, in part, I think, because of the "let's let a room full of strangers stare into my gaping vagina as I expel a child from it" phenomenon your friend described.

My husband, on the other hand, is very uncomfortable with the idea of the kids seeing him naked.  I've always thought that was strange, since he obviously doesn't think there's anything wrong with my complete lack of privacy.

Miss Britt

http://www.miss-britt.com

"Dignity is Overrated"

Kristy Sammis 5 pts

I agree that on many levels, we're generally more comfortable with women's nudity than men's. However, I don't see this translating -- at ALL -- to how comfortable women are being naked versus how comfortable men are being naked. [I guess because we're so used to seeing women's naked bodies, it's easier to judge ourselves, and assume others are judging us, as we compare to unrealistic standards of Hollywood beauty.]

But one of my long-ago colleagues had a PhD in Psychology and had a very strong opinion about male/female bodies that I think is worth bringing up. It has to do with the locker room in jr. high and high school.

According to him, in boys locker rooms, dudes just walk around naked. There are few stalls (if any) in most men's locker rooms and public bathrooms, and privacy isn't something men can find easily in these situations, ever.

His point: Guys are socialized to let it all hang out in front of each other from a very early age.

And I know from my own female locker room experiences, with us girls it was totally, totally different.

---
Kristy Sammis
BlogHer's Conference & Event Planner
e. kristy@blogher.com

Bill Cammack 5 pts

Women's bodies are going to be more appealing out of necessity.  There are a million and one products and services geared towards women maintaining or enhancing their physical attractiveness.

Until they invented "metrosexuals", all they had to get money from men was haircuts, shaves and selling us suits.  Suits are used to cover up the physique of males, while clothes are designed to show off the curves of women.

So, basically, a lot more is invested in women looking good, and very little is invested in men looking good.  There's no reason for guys to be more in shape than they need to be to pull the kind of woman they want.  Since they know they're not going to be judged on their looks (for the most part), there's no reason for guys to maintain them.

~ Bill ( http://billcammack.com )
I blog at billcammack.com ( http://billcammack.com )

Crunchy Carpets 5 pts

I keep thinking of the OPEN dressing rooms that were common in UK clothing stores...

One big room with mirrors for women to try on stuff..one big one for the gents.

Kids galore checking you out! 

Look for me at http://crunchycarpets.com or check out the ladies at www.wetcoastwomen.com ( http://www.wetcoastwomen.com )

Kristy Sammis 5 pts

While I happen to agree with this statement, I always wonder WHY that is.

Don't you think it has something to do with the very point you and Suzanne are making? Women's bodies are accessible and men's bodies aren't...that HAS to affect how we determine which is more "appealing."

---
Kristy Sammis
BlogHer's Conference & Event Planner
e. kristy@blogher.com

msjen 5 pts

I think we should also look at this from a cultural perspective, as we are assuming an American/Western perspective here, as in Japan while the culture is very private there is a culture of bathing in public. 

In the early  nineties a friend of mine did her Master's Degree at Oxford and her thesis was on the attitudes towards women and their sexuality in the ancient world.  There has been a complete flip in perspective since the time of Greece, Rome, and the early Christian era in Western thinking.  In both of those cultures, men and men's sexuality were very public and men were safe, whereas women were very private and perceived as sexually dangerous.  Today, women are perceived as safe sexually, men as dangerous, and women are public, men are private.

I am quite curious when this flip was made in terms of cultural thinking. 

Black Phoebe :: Ms. Jen ( http://www.blackphoebe.com/msjen )

The Mom Crowd 5 pts

I have enjoyed reading the all the comments. I was thinking about the bathing issue the other day. I sometimes bathe/shower with my 18 month old daughter and I was wondering at what age do I stop? If I had a boy, I probably wouldn't bathe with him, but my husband might. For me it is the same gender thing.

My husband takes 18 month old into men's restrooms to change, but at some point this will probably stop. I don't want her seeing other guys penises at that wall stahls. If she doesn't have a brother, then I am perfectly okay if her first experience seeing a penise is on her honeymoon night. It worked for me and I think I turned out okay. 

we just aren't generally a naked family. I don't think either way is right or wrong. Its just what fits with your family. 

honestly, I think it is okay that as moms there is a more comfort level with our bodies than with guys. We gave birth and nursed our babies with our boobs. We are the maternal ones. 

Decoybetty 5 pts

My friends and I often joke that there are two kinds of families Naked Families and Not Naked Families.  I grew up in a Naked Family, I've seen everyone naked. I showered with my dad, he took me into men's dressing rooms, and the men's locker room at his gym.  I don't remember seeing any penises at all. it never felt strange.

 I don't have kids, so i have no idea what its like to lose the kind of privacy that parents, and seemingly mothers, lose.

heidis 5 pts

but only because they are usually much dirtier than the women's room.  Neither one of us wanted our little girl to walk through "splashes" or sit on nasty toilet seats. 

myfunnyfunnyfamily 5 pts

He has never mentioned anyone complaining or any traumatic events. It's true that children are with their mothers more often but it's not as if it's unheard of for fathers to take little girls into the men's room. Even if we are out together, it's just something I will often ask him to do because I deserve a break sometimes.

 And I have never experienced a man asking a strange woman to take his child into the bathroom.

Suzanne 5 pts

I actually left breastfeeding out of the post because it is such a weird contradiction. I think, though, that it signifies that we are comfortable with women's bodies naked in general and naked as sexual objects to be observed, but not naked and functional.

This whole post (and the one I posted today about men as elder caregivers) really makes me notice how little we think of and trust men's motives. I'm glad that a few people have posted about how their kids are involved with their dads the way they are with their moms when it comes to bathing and toileting, otherwise I'd be utterly depressed!

Suzanne Reisman ( http://www.blogher.com/member/suzanne-reisman ), Contributing Editor - Feminism & Gender ( http://blogher.org/topic/feminism-gender )
Campaign for Unshaved Snatch (CUSS) & Other Rants ( http://cussandotherrants.com/ )

aaustin13 6 pts

Wow, fascinating post, and fascinating comments.  I love the idea of Imago - and can really see how my kids' behavior is explained by the concept.

When my oldest was a baby, we went to BW3s (a restaurant/sports bar) and I gave the manager a hard time for not having changing tables in the men's restroom.  We returned last night, and my husband said, "Not to encourage you, but there is now a changing table in the men's room!"  So, maybe if enough of us make a stink over the issue, we can have more changing table equality between the sexes.

I agree that after the experience of giving birth (and #2 daughter came FAST, so everyone in scrubs within a 20 mile radius reported to my labor room when they switched on the lights and sirens to get the doctor to hussle) I have no feeling of privacy anymore. My sister still gets worked up over having a pelvic exam, because it's so embarassing, and I think, "just you wait..."

Maybe next time I have a baby, I'll make my husband stand there naked, too.  Just to even things up.

Seriously, though, my husband also has different boundaries about nudity than I do, but he's more reserved, in general, than I am.  I'd never thought about my girls' first experience with a penis being "in a dark room."  

Again, thanks for a really interesting, thought provoking post (and comments!)

I'm over at http://prettybabies.blogspot.com

Mamalogues 5 pts

I don't think women's bodies have been rendered common - quite the contrary, actually - I think that they have been oversexualized to the point where I (and others) have been told off, in person, multiple times for daring to breastfeed my children in public.

Regarding the bathroom thing though; I take my boys to the bathroom with me when my husband isn't present, but I do so because I generally feel that women are "safer" because they are inherently more maternal and there are less incidents with women as opposed to men. Does that make sense? I dunno. I think that maybe that's where it stems from. 

Dana Loesch
Mamalogues.com ( http://www.mamalogues.com )

Host and executive producer, "The Dana Show" ( http://www.971talk.com/dana/index.aspx )
on Fox News affiliate KFTK 97.1 FM Talk

Crunchy Carpets 5 pts

and what..the naked father could be a danger to their children too?

While I have been a bit iffy about my daughter going into men's rooms....mainly due to what SHE would say..no trauma....

it is also breaking all these terrible stereotypes.

We are a nudie family...every takes turns showering and the kids LOVE a bath with dad..because he is the fun one..though apparently my boobs are the most fun anyway!

Look for me at http://crunchycarpets.com or check out the ladies at www.wetcoastwomen.com ( http://www.wetcoastwomen.com )

janarayne 5 pts

Interesting comments.  Our private bodies have been partially expanded to public domain by our modern society because of child rearing necessities (such as leaving the bathroom door open) and sexualized marketing.  But the two originate from the same source.  We are not far out of the trees! Female bodies were designed to be shared in childbearing and breast feeding.  For two years after nursing my youngest daughter she gained great comfort from resting her cheek against my bare chest; she wanted skin to skin reassurance.  Children in bathrooms is simply an issue of practicality. While women comfort, protect, gather and cultivate, men fight the wooly mammoth. The only difference is now we all now hunt and gather for pay.  To attract a mate women make themselves look more fertile/sexy.  To sell a product to women, marketers insinuate it's sex appeal.  To sell a product to men they appeal to his virility.  It's all in our biology; nothing has changed. Follow your first instinct, don't over think it.

Jana Rayne  www.awomansgoodnight.com 

Suzanne 5 pts

I was thinking about showering and bathing as an issue, so I am so glad that you brought it up. I think you are right that it is not so typical for dads to shower with their kids, especially daughters, and much more so for moms to do so with children of either sex. And the more I thought about what you and the other people who left comments to this wrote, the more it struck me that as women's bodies are seen as public domain, men's are seen as traumatizing or corrupting, which is very sad, too. Or worse, that legions of men will just wait in bathrooms to look at naked kids while their dads change them if more restrooms had changing tables. Is this what we really think of men? I hope not!

The dichotomies are really stark, and totally artificial.

Suzanne Reisman ( http://www.blogher.com/member/suzanne-reisman ), Contributing Editor - Feminism & Gender ( http://blogher.org/topic/feminism-gender )
Campaign for Unshaved Snatch (CUSS) & Other Rants ( http://cussandotherrants.com/ )

Suzanne 5 pts

I think the idea that a girl seeing a penis is traumatic verifies the idea that men's bodies are more private than women's. It is not inherently traumatizing for a girl to see a penis but normal when a boy looks under the stall door and sees me squatting over the toilet, but the values and stigmas that we place on genitalia and the acceptability of who sees what.

Suzanne Reisman ( http://www.blogher.com/member/suzanne-reisman ), Contributing Editor - Feminism & Gender ( http://blogher.org/topic/feminism-gender )
Campaign for Unshaved Snatch (CUSS) & Other Rants ( http://cussandotherrants.com/ )

Carrie Blankenship 5 pts

Interesting.  I love what traceesioux wrote, LOVE it.  I've never been very modest with my body when my children were young (like under 5 young) - the boys are now 10 and 11 and my daughter is 5.  She still showeers with me and sees me naked and I really look at that as more of a "we are the same" kind of thing.  If she were a boy, it wouldn't be happening, and it is seldom that she sees her father undressed anymore - she is just getting to be too old.

I think there is an intimacy implied with being the mother, as well as an intimacy among a parent and a child of the same sex that always remains.  I still have it with my own mother but ask me what my father looks like naked and I'll happily pass on that image.

But I'm not sure how this transfers into the sexualization of women - the public bathroom thing is just a necessity, whichever parent is "on duty" and neither should feel ashamed or ridiculed for bringing a small child into either restroom.  However, it would be nice if the men's rooms were a little more private, from my understanding.  Thank goodness there are family bathrooms in more locations now.

Anyway, it's definitely an intersting topic.  Thank you for opening up the conversation.

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loriensilverleaf 5 pts

I guess my family is atypical in many ways, this being one.  My husband showers with our 4 year old every day, which I don't think is weird.  At some point she will want to bathe by herself and that will be a transition.  He also takes her into men's restrooms when they are together and she has to go.  It's nice that many larger public places now have family restrooms, I hope to see more of those as time goes by, as well as changing table in men's rooms.  I think avoiding having them because there are weirdos in this world gives the power to the weirdo.  Make men changing babies/toddlers in a public restroom the norm and the weirdos suddenly stand out and can be put in their places.

My parents were comfortable being naked around me so I guess it doesn't seem strange to me, but I'm glad they were open about it. 

Julie Marsh 5 pts

I've been heartened to find that even in the past six years (since I had my first child), more and more men's restrooms come equipped with changing tables. 

It is difficult to walk the line between privacy and shame when explaining to a child why we cover ourselves, don't touch ourselves in front of others, don't touch others, and should not allow others to touch us.  Then we reverse all of these positions when explaining to a child how he/she came to be.

Julie

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traceesioux 5 pts

Now if the question is more about the boundaries between children and parents, I was just thinking about this.

There is a psychological theory that babies think of themselves as part of the mother - that they don't differentiate between mother and myself - they call it an Imago and it's vital to the child's development of identity. 

 The same phenominon does not happen with fathers. It happens with the body that carries them in the womb, nurishes them with their breasts, changes their diapers and bathes them (fathers do this now, but it's only been a generation) - it involves a great deal of physical intimacy when one person grows and forms inside of another and uses that person as a portal into the world and then as food. 

 Women's bodies are not public domain - women's bodies are their sacred place that forms them and shelters them and and feeds them. Babies and children know this. Instinctively.

My husband has far more strict boundaries around our children than I do. He locks the door when he goes to the bathroom and changes clothes, the older my children get the more privacy I claim - but while they are small they have almost complete access to my body. Because they feel somehow shut off from the Imago when I seperate my self. 

The more they see themselves as whole and individual and seperate from me (Mommy) and the Imago (thier image of us as one being) the more boundaries I create between my body and theirs and the more privacy I get.  And yes, I'm starting to crave it more. For my own sanity and sense of self as seperate. 

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traceesioux 5 pts

I think the answer lies in the fact that women pee in the privacy of a stall. 

Men pee in public - at a communal urinals - no stalls or doors. Everyone can see thier junk.

Do you really want your young daughter to walk into a men's room and see strangers' penises?

I don't. 

Nor do I think most men want young girls to be traumatized by this visual. 

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Bill Cammack 5 pts

This whole "get young females used to the male anatomy of their relatives" thing is immediately creepy and isn't going to happen.  Neither is "changing rooms in male restrooms" (unless they're individual bathrooms with locking doors), because there are too many weirdos that would enjoy that.  Not meaning the fathers, of course, other males in the same restroom.

IMO, the objectification of women's bodies comes from whatever teaching or lack of teaching the kids receive.  Parents who don't instill their own values leave it to either teachers or the kid's peers in the streets to teach them what women's bodies are for.

Also, you might want to look at psychological cues as well as physical ones.  How does the father treat the mother?  The child's going to pick up on this.  If the father's affectionate or touchy-feely, the kid's going to get a message.  If the father's standoffish and acts like his wife shouldn't be touched at all, the kid's going to get a different message.

I'm pretty sure it's the prevailing mentality of the patriarchal society that maintains women as "public domain", but this is an interesting topic to consider.  You'll probably be more successful shutting off the child's access to BOTH parents before you'll get the guy to agree to something like this.

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stubbygray 5 pts

Thanks for this interesting post.

 My husband and I have always been of the "nude is better" variety.  I continue to follow this practice since having my daughter.  But you're right!  Since she's been old enough to amble around on her own, my husband has started covering his private parts. 

 I told him that I don't want her "first experience of the male anatomy to be in a dark room" as cluelss newlywed said above. But he says he feels uncomfortable. Your post helps put it into perspective.  

 He's also better able than I am to maintain boundaries.  She feels as though my breasts are her toys--great for poking, squeezing and bouncing anytime she likes. 

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Suzanne 5 pts

Although I disagree that women have more appealing bodies than men, I'm so glad that we are thinking on the same track with this public domain thing. I think all young kids are curious about what goes on behind the stall door, and as Amber said, it's just that they only have the opportunity to see women.

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AmberS 5 pts

I am a mom of 2 young children, and I have NO privacy.  My husband gets to go to the bathroom by himself, I do not.  I am one of many, I know.  And the head-under-the-stall business isn't a male trait, my daughter does this too.  Little kids just don't respect personal space. 

One thing that drives me up a tree is the lack of change tables in men's restrooms.  Come on, people!  That seems so basic.

~ Amber

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clueless newlywed 5 pts

called philosophy of the mind, sex and body, and although it had nothing at all to do with my major, it was my favorite class.  We studied race and sexuality, and we learned an interesting fact about the male anatomy...Pretty much what you touched upon in this post, that it's shrouded in mystery.  More specifically, that men go to such great lengths to hide their "manhood" from the world because if they didn't then people would see that it's really not that big of a deal after all.  I mean, in generaly, women's bodies are much more appealing then men's (Sorry guys, but it's true.)  Men are taught at a very young age to hide their members from the world.  So much so that if you think about it, a young woman's first experience with the male anatomy is usually in a dark room.