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Why I'm Pro-Life

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I wasn't always pro-life.

In the early '90's, I was a card-carrying, sign-waving, Clinton-campaigning pro-choicer.  I held to the notion that a fetus couldn't fully be life, since it was dependent entirely on another for its existence.  And I believed the notion that abortion is unfortunate, but it wasn't any of the government's business.

I wish I could point you to a specific point on my journey where my views shifted entirely.  There was no dramatic morning where I woke up suddenly pro-life. My thoughts on the subject have meandered down many roads before winding up where they are today.  I've been asked to tell you why I believe the way I do. 

I will, and I invite you to come to this conversation with respect and courtesy.  There's too much yelling over this issue, on both sides, making it impossible to hear each other.  I understand (because I've been there) that pro-choicers stand their position firmly because they believe they're defending the fundamental value of choice.

And I understand (because I'm there now) that pro-lifers stand their position firmly because they believe they're defending the fundamental value of life.

Volumes and volumes have been written on the subject, and smarter people than I have debated it for years.  Time and space will not allow for me to address every imaginable facet of this debate.

But I will address the two issues that ultimately were responsible for changing my heart on the subject of abortion: that of a embryo/fetus as life, and the issue of choice.

The embryo and fetus as life
I'm no scientiest, but I pay enough attention to know that defining life is no black-and-white matter.  For many years, I made myself comfortable with the definition of life as that which could be sustained independently from another human. 

It was a tidy argument, I thought, until I began to expand it outward.  If only independently sustainable life really "counted" then what would we do with the Alzheimer's patient who would wander off into danger without constant supervision?  Or the mentally disabled child who could not eat without being fed by someone else?  Or the young mother dependent on dialysis for survival?

By my old definition, I was discrediting the "alive-ness" of people who needed help to exist.  The slope was so terribly slippery that I found myself flailing as I slipped down it.  If I could no longer consider dependence on another a pre-requisite for being human, then where would I draw the line?  Science seemed to be making things more ambiguous, but my heart craved a more concrete answer.  After reading and looking investigating and comparing, I realized I had to admit to myself there was only one un-ambiguous start of life that satisfied me:

Conception.

But there was that slippery slope again.   Where did this put that important issue of a woman's right to choose?

The issue of choice
Choice is a beautiful thing.  It is a fundamental part of what makes us humans.  I passionately defend a woman's right to choose a career or schooling or housing or any number of life avenues.  I defend her choice to decide whether to have sex, and with whom, and how often, and whether or not to use birth control.

But absolute, unhindered choice is not a guaranteed human right.  Think about it: civil society already tells us that we cannot "choose" to abuse a child or "choose" to steal a car.  There are legal consequences to those actions, because "choosing" to burglarize a home infringes on the basic liberties of the person who lives there. 

The precedent is set.  When our right to choose bumps up against the right of another to exist peacefully, our choice is blocked by civilized law.

And it is with this in mind that I realized, as I came to terms with the validity of the human-ness of a embryo and fetus, that I had to accept there was a moral point at which a "woman's right to choose" ended.  Her right to decide what to do with her body bumps up against the right of that baby's right to exist. 

The only place I could arrive after looking at the medical/legal/social/civil/constitutional issues was that something had to give.  A woman's right to choose an abortion cannot logically co-exist with a embryo/fetus' right to be born. 

Simply put, life trumps choice.

And no, to answer the question that inevitably arises when this issue is brought up, I don't think the pro-life movement is perfect (then again, is any movement?).  I cannot be responsible for

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babyamg7 5 pts

well Ive spent about an hour reading what everyone has to say and i agree and disagree with so much of it ....here's what i have to say ...i think the baby is a baby .....when lacy Peterson was murdered the whole country thought of her and her baby ..not her and her ball of cells .....he took 2 lives ...hers and her unborn baby's .....so why is it a baby when someone wants it? but a ball of cells when an inconvenience ........and when pro-choicers say its not a life because it cannot live without its mother? i don't understand that either? because an newborn infant cannot survive without someone Else's dependency ....so in a pro-choicers view it should be OK  to kill children until they can care for themselves because there mother chose not to take care of them .... I'm pro-life ....i don't believe in the death penalty in any circumstance...i don't believe in embryonic stem cell research  i think no one should have the power to take away a humans life/soul ....i am a firm believer in a woman's  choice ..i chose to do what i want when i want but i don't chose to be a prostitute or steal or sell drugs or murder because its wrong and you go to jail for these kind of things .....so just because we believe in choice doesn't mean we get the right to chose to murder .....and i agree that more should be done to educate so unwanted pregnancy's accrue way less often i have two daughters they are just baby's now but as there mother and teacher i will try my hardest to raise them as my mother raised me ..very strictly lol my mom raised me to believe in god and to try my hardest to be moral ...i saved my self for marriage and for the respect and strength of myself and my husband .....so it can be taught and im no saint either when i was first married i took birth control but when i googled is birth control abortive i was in shock to know it was i also asked my doctor and he confirmed that if you believe life begins at conception it is abortive so i flushed my pills very sadly and now i have 2 daughters at 22 and my 1st was planned but if i would have been taking my pills i wouldn't have my unplanned beautiful 1yr old marykate who i love and adore.........anymore people just except immoral things because they think its normal ...but its not ....and I'm not saying that if a woman gets an abortion she will be dammed to hell because i truly believe in my heart that most woman who get abortions don't fully understand what they are aborting and as fare as the rape issue goes its very rare but if it happened to me i would keep it because that child would be half of mine and if it was to hard to keep there are millions of woman out there dieing to chose your baby for adoption...also if i had to make the choice of my life or my baby's i would chose my baby's it would be selfish to live 22 years and chose not to give them a day  ....and as far the abort because there was something wrong with the baby i don't think that's right either there has been so many cases where doctors have been proven wrong and if there was something wrong with my child it would still be mine and giving to me for a reason

I'm a firm believer that life happens for a reason even though at times we cant understand what that reason is ....someday we will

I'm sure there's alot of people who don't like my take on life... but its mine

i may live in a fairytale world but i BELIEVE in good

birthmom 5 pts

"what happens to these children?  Not those of us who were
'oops babies' and were okay because we had families who pulled it
together somewhat and limped it along...I mean those other kids.  The
ones who get left crying in cribs for hours because their parent went
out to score another hit.  The ones who get slapped around and far
worse because they have parents who can't deal with them?  The ones who
start prostituting and selling drugs because there's no food in the
house and they're hungry?"

In response...THEY CAN BE ADOPTED INTO LOVING FAMILIES perfectly capable and willing to love them and provide all the resources and opportunities a child deserves. As a rape victim and having an unplanned pregnancy and no means to support my child I was shown the abudance of opportnities there are available for girls in my similar situation. I had no idea the choices that I had, until visiting the local adoption agency. You can provide your child with the most loving family and pick every last detail, if you choose to.  No one can understand how amazing it feels to take something tragic and make it into something wonderful, until they have been their themselves. Don't deny young girls/mothers this right because the other option of abortion was just "too easy" for them to avoid. I was tempted to go this route myself, but I am a stronger woman today because I didn't. I would of prefered their of been no option for me and giving life was the only way, because your first impulse reaction could be to end a life. The thought alone is to close to this realization that my daughter would not exist today.

I believe everything happens for a reason, and no pregnancy is unwanted. And there are parents who are capable to raise and love every child. I am going to be rude here and just have to say... We are women, let's give life and shut up about it..or else be a guy! I'm sorry, but we should feel honored to be able to give life and be thankful for all the millions of families praying for children to adopt everyday, from EVERY situation.

The problem you see in your line of work, is like I see everyday too.  And I agree it is because of uncapable parents. But these are just as much the parents that "plan" pregnancies  as those who do not. Off topic, I think because it's cheaper to be pregnant than to not be... is why most families who shouldn't be procreating are. I had no idea how everything is free when you are pregnant, until I was! I was able to get free insurance and medical for 3 months after the birth. Staying pregnant seems a pretty easy way to avoid paying bills, that's all.  That has to play some part.

Also, in response to your post....I had pre-ecampsia, gained 100 pds, and almost died. Pregnancy is easy, it's not hard, I had natural labor and I'm 25 and what is all this fuss about! I may be PMS'ing at the moment, but I'm just dang tired of reading about people supporting a woman's right to kill an unborn child! That's my daughter and maybe someone else's future son or daughter we are talking about, in my eyes at least. 

 Also, abstinence education at my highschool...only helped start families at age 16. Everyone had to go try what they just learned how to use....

If you want goverment to stay out of a woman's right to choose...then let's also have government stay out of a parent's right to choose what is taught to their own childern in school (and their children are "more living", I guess, So they are probably much more important too?)

uberbrun 5 pts

Abortion- Yes, there should be far fewer of these, I completely agree. 
As the mother of a newborn I strongly defend the right of women who
have unplanned pregnancies to terminate them and have an abortion.  I
love my son, he is amazing.  I am a married first-time mother in a supportive
relationship with no real money worries and public health insurance. 
With all that there are still many times I feel inadequate to support my
child.  Now take someone who is underage or without physical, emotional
or financial help or without good mental or physical health herself. 
Those women should be able to decide not to have a baby.  Why? 

Well,
what happens to these children?  Not those of us who were
'oops babies' and were okay because we had families who pulled it
together somewhat and limped it along...I mean those other kids.  The
ones who get left crying in cribs for hours because their parent went
out to score another hit.  The ones who get slapped around and far
worse because they have parents who can't deal with them?  The ones who
start prostituting and selling drugs because there's no food in the
house and they're hungry?  Yeah - those are the kids I see everyday working in Children's Mental Health. 
And they go looking for love
and acceptance and belonging because nobody  at home provides that.  And then what happens?  They have babies they can't take care of.  They join gangs because they feel like there is a place for them and that someone is looking out for them.  It is a sick, sick circle. 

-Having
said that abortion is horrible.  I was asked to be a support person for a young woman who had one not too long ago.  I held her hand while they started it
and stayed with her in recovery while she cried and drove her home
afterward.  It was horrible.  She will never forget it and neither will
I.  But she shouldn't have to be pregnant (not easy) have a baby
(really hard) and possibly be a mother (if she chooses) because I wouldn't expect my 14 year-old child to do that and I wouldn't expect your daughters to either.  Certianly there are a lot of young, middle class girls whose parents vote pro-life but are ashamed when their daughter becomes pregnant and send them off to "camp" or "grandma's for the summer."  It happens.  I am from the other camp.  I never had one, I never found myself in the position of needing one.  And I don't think I would have chosen to if I had been in that situation.  But that's the thing with these hard choices, you never know what you would do until you are in that situation.  I vote for a woman's right to choose because I was never there myself and I don't believe in imposing my views on other people.  I don't think a room full of middle-aged, mostly Caucasian men should decide if our daughters and young women everywhere should have to carry each pregnancy to term.

-Prevention.  Let's look at Sarah Palin,and my heart breaks for her daughter who has been splashed all over the media.  But she illistrates the point that abstinance-based sex education
does not work.  It doesn't even work when you reinforce it with a strong
family structure and a good upbringing.  Teenagers have sex.  Not all,
but most of them.  We need better education for youth, access to contraception and the means for young women, particularly those without partners, to have access to public programs and support necessary to raise a child on their own if we really want more people to follow these pregnancies through to term. 

Corrine 5 pts

very well said.  This is very interesting feed. And enlightening to hear all sides.  Corrine

Corrine 5 pts

Your babies weren't murdred by God.  Death is part of our life cycle.  We have no real control over death, which we shouldn't.  It just happens. And it is sad.  I really don't believe God willingly makes us suffer, but He also allows life and nature to take their courses as well. Is everyone who dies a murder vicitim of Gods?   

I do have a hard time understanding how one can experience such grief at losing an unborn child and at the same time agree with taking the life away by choice.

Also, yes the government has provided programs to help people, but at some point people need to take responsibilites for their own lives and not have the government support them for their whole lives.  Corrine

birthmom 5 pts

Lots of comments...I loved your post, and everything else you commented about. I have to admit, I stopped reading the comments after number 15 though! Goodness it's a touchy subject. I will read them all someday I'm sure. Now I just wanted to say I was always anti-abortion but I wasn't the type to try to stop anyone on their way to the abortion clinic either (so I don't think I was anything but confused on the subject) Now I am anti-abortion because every unborn cihld out there I see as my little Annie and saving them is like getting to save her all over again. Every abortion to me is like killing my little girl before she got to show the world how amazing she was. She changed 3 families lives and affected so many people before she was even 30 days old! I was raped and knew I would be to tempted to have an abortion (always knew choice was a hard one) so I blocked out that I was pregnant for 7 months. Whatever you have to do to keep the life inside you alive...I support. God makes anything possible, so it's the least we can do to bring life into the world as women. It's why we are women!!! I even had pre-eclampesia in last month of pregnancy that almost killed me too. Gained 100 pounds and 20 in twod days. But I was determined to give life to the world, not replace one or take away two for no reason...and so was God.

I love ADOPTION now too! I didn't give her up because it was rape either..I did it because I wanted her to have stability and two Godly parents. I miss her everyday, but know made right choice. I have a purpose now in life I feel to do all I can to stop abortion, spread awareness of adoption, change the stigma on adoptions, change the image of birth moms from those unprepared to those who truly love, and raise awareness of pre-eclapsia. Also not the point of adoption is to provide child with everything they deserve and need. So sorry, but i don't support gay adoptions because psychology and research proves it is best to have both male and female caregivers. Sure it's possible to raise healthy child without, but point of adoption is to give the best to child. Just adding my two cents to your great post. Doubt anybody will read page 4 cause I sure didn't! lol

Thanks, brooke

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In response to the comment before mine, I just read...

I guess there is just no use convincing some people. I;m just baffled by how pro-choice supporters use the "don't want government controlling my family and my life" statement....when they are (or I assume must be) democrats politically. Isn't that being very hypocritical and picking and choosing what to notice? To be democrat is to be, in essence, ok allowing the government 2 control almost everything we do and assuming that people can't make their own choices without the goverment's help. Pro-choice...how about Pro-responsibility in general. We are women, we have a choice and free will anyways. Like previous comments have said, abortion will be done anyways, if women want to or not. Our duty and priveltage as women (besides being the dominant sex and capable of doing anything) is to teach younger generations of women the importance of life so they never risk their life for an unsafe means of abortion if it is never legalized. Legalizing it sends a haunting scary message to my daughter and her daughters, daughters, that it's ok to give up. If I am wrong, i hope God shows me the right stance on this issue before I die. God Bless.

lilyanasmom 5 pts

I am undeniably pro choice.  But want to thank you for speaking on the topic with eloquence and heart.  Not attacking.  I came to this board looking for other adoptive families.  When you sight adoption as a point of interest several abortion rants come up.  For me these tirads hit very close to home.  I just had an abortion but it was not by choice.  I was 4 1/2 months pregnant and had severe complications which made it necessary to abort my baby.  Who by the way still had a heartbeat, but there was no way to save her and my life was at risk. As a mother to a little one whom has already gone through the loss of two mothers before coming into my arms I don't feel I have the right to risk my life and for her to loose yet another mother.  Although I had such love for my angel my living childs needs had to trump the needs of my unborn childs.  And here for me is where the slope gets very slippery in the argument of pro life.  If a womens right to choose is taken away who gets to decide for me and my family what is right.  At what point is the line drawn.  In my case would it be okay and if we draw the line there where then do we stop that line.  I think abortion is sad but I do not in any way want the government to choose my fate or the fate of my children.  Born or unborn. 

missiowa 5 pts

I am in college and these are the years where a lot of unexpected pregnancies happen.  I know of too many already.  We all know that contraceptives are not 100 percent effective.  In a lot of these cases, the mothers are no where near ready to have a child.  They are not finacially stable, do not have an education yet, and not ready to settle down.  I know that there is adoption, but there are a lot of kids in the adoption agencies already. Also, I could not imagine carrying a child for 9 months and then having to give it up for adoption.  If the mother did decide to keep the child, the child could end up having a horible life because the mother would just blame the child or neglect him/her.  I believe that the mother knows herself well enough to know if she is ready or not.  I do agree that some people abuse the right of choice, but I think we need to let it be up to the woman.  If we let others control when/if we can give birth to a child or not, when are they going to stop taking away our rights?  

I dont want to come across like I am a pro-life hater because I am not.  I have never, personally, been in a situation where I would have to choose. I really liked this article and I am glad to be able to share my thoughts to everyone else. 

madeintaiwan 5 pts

Hello, I'm new to the board and stumbled on to the post.. I don't have any easy answers obviously but I do hope that people will think about pro-choice supporters with more compassion. It is so easy to judge when you live in your little world and proclaim absolutes... but there is a big, complex, and sometimes very very dark world out there with situations that are not even fathomable to some. Why do we need to put people on trial for murder?? Because judgments on death are not so clear cut. Some deaths end up being accidental, some are due to negligence, some in self-defense...
I personally think abortions have gotten way out of hand and are way too convenient, but it would go too far to say there are any absolutes.
I also hope that people who are Christians will.. follow Christ. It is of course your duty to follow what you "feel" God is saying to you... but there are his commands that ARE absolute; namely, love each other, do not judge. So in sharing an opinion, that should hopefully come through in your post. It always saddens me to see so much cruelty from a follower of Jesus... Jesus who washed the feet of others, Jesus who loved the ostracized.
Sorry to intrude, but thanks for letting me put in my thoughts.

Gloria Pan 5 pts

I wish I had seen this thread earlier. Serves me right for not visitng more often!

Here's a question I've never heard a satisfactory answer to. Maybe someone here can help.

How does one justify being pro-life AND a good American, one who believes in freedom of religion, one of the most important ideas this country was built on? There are many Americans who are not Christian or who just don' believe that a cluster of cells warrants the same rights and respect as fully formed human. So, how does that work? Do pro-lifers believe there's room in this country for people who think like that? Or do they believe that all people SHOULD believe that life begins at conception and those who don't are immoral and damned. If this is so, then how would this be different from religious persecution?

Chris Arsenault 5 pts

Laurie - what I did in response to your comment was grossly unfair to you as an individual. Whatever opinion you hold or express regarding these issues or my expressions, doesn't mean I can disrespect you as a person. I sincerely apologize and humbly ask for your forgiveness.

Jn 20:23

nellewrites 6 pts

biology assigns different accountabilities to men and women. Even taking precautions isn't 100% assurance. Bottom line, what happens within one's body is the province of that person.

I've yet to meet a choicer who is thrilled by the idea of surgical abortion, but it comes down to who has the right over our own bodies?

I often see 'responsibility' tossed around on this issue, but sometimes... aborting *is* the responsible choice, and who ultimately makes that determination should be the person preggers.

Off to work!

nelle ( http://www.nelle2nelle.org/ )

Jane Byers Goodwin 5 pts

Women have always had control over whether they got pregnant or not. It's called "self control."

If you have inappropriate sex and get pregnant, who's to blame? The baby? The helpless result of YOUR CHOICE? The baby is the true victim here, not either adult, both of whom freely chose to indulge. You helped create this child, but you don't want to reap any consequences of that choice?

I'll say it again: The CHOICE is whether or not to have sex. Pregnancy is the result of that choice. Pregnancy is not a choice; it's a fact. It's the natural result of an action. It's a consequence, not a choice.

I'm all for choice. I love sex. But I'm not going to try and eel out of the natural consequences of a chosen action by calling it something it's NOT, to make myself feel better because it certainly wasn't MY fault I got pregnant even though I made the CHOICE to roll in the hay but I don't want to pay any consequences for it, I just want to DO IT. It feels good, and I deserve fun in my life. Consequences? Please. The time was right to roll in the hay, but the time isn't right to pay any consequences for it.

Sorry, fellow women. When we follow our hormones out the door, we often get knocked up. Men don't. Men can walk away. We can't.

Actually, MEN don't walk away. Little boys do, but MEN don't. That's a whole 'nuther topic, though. :)

But honestly? I don't think WOMEN walk away, either. Scared little girls do, but WOMEN don't. This one might be still on topic.

What's the solution? BETTER CHOICES!!!!!!!

Is it just me, or are many of the people commenting on both sides of this issue concentrating on the personal "what's good for me" issues and ignoring a lot of the "natural consequences of your actions" issue?

Because concentrating on the "me me me" issues seems pretty damn selfish, and immature, too.

"Don't be content with being average; average is as close to the bottom as it is to the top."

nellewrites 6 pts

No passionate views on this subject!

I agree that there is way too much divisiveness on the issue - both plers and pcers will stand their ground. I'm one on the pc side who will... but when engaged in dialogue on the subject, do ultimately try to steer in a direction of where we might find common ground.

Before going there, when life begins is not a deciding factor, it is legal consequences, where our legal system can and should stand. With this issue, either the woman who creates and develops the foetus has rights which supersede those of the other. There is no middle ground legally. To give primary rights to one is to take from the other. Given this, it makes no legal sense to extend primary rights to a foetus,

When we get into banning choice, we get on a slippery slope that sees charges (initially murder charges) against a woman for choosing vaginal birth (hello, Utah) over a c section.

Women will be criminalised for deciding what they wish to happen within their own bodies. There won't be an end to abortion, it will just be driven to high risk underground locales, with discovery leading to aforementioned criminal charges. Visions of Anthony Comstock and his war against women guised in morality.

With that as consequence, better we move away from removing the right of choice to things which can make an actual difference - prevention. Universal health care, very comprehensive sex ed (that is taught and taught and taught again) and widely available & cheap contraception.

With this, surgical abortion can be greatly reduced. Is it not better to chemically induce early on, then progress to surgical abortion? Is it not better to use contraception and prevent pregancy altogether? Yet some on the pl side have serious issue with contraception, failing to accept that passing law prohibiting the distribution and sale of plan B etc, actually harms what they are seeking to achieve?

Move to these things. None of us will step back from our entrenched view of the right to abort - but we can greatly impact the number of abortions in real time through a little common effort and advocacy.

nelle ( http://www.nelle2nelle.org/ )

mrs.spit 5 pts

As we have established, as much as I don't like it, I wouldn't vote to ban abortion, but I sure wish that people were more honest. I think both sides of the argument lie to society, and as politically incorrect as it is to say it, that includes abortion clinics.

I wish that the pro-choice movement did point out that there are private abortion clinics, and they are "for profit healthcare, (as a Canadian, I obviously find this bizarre) and that they aren't always honest with women about the problems and the risks - some women struggle for years after an abortion, it is surgery, things can go wrong, there isn't much counselling, and women who go to abortion clinics don't get much neutral, unbiased information about all of their options. It's not the same as having your wisdom teeth removed.

I wish that pro-life supporters would stop suggesting that every woman develops "post-abortion" syndrome, or that they have all the answers to crisis pregnancies, and that adoption is the answer, and that everything can be solved with the provision of diapers and free pre-natal care. That all mothers will magically want their babies, or that adoption always goes well. I wish they provided information about abortion that wasn't couched in "fighting words" like baby killer, and that they didn't show video's of abortions that don't tell the truth about how they are performed.

There are no simple, easy answers. I don't like abortion. I wouldn't want my daughter, my friend, my god-child, my anyone to have one. I think they are horrible tragedies. Always. As someone who lost a child, I can't help but cringe when I think of children aborted. I am always reminded of something Pope JPII said - any society that kills it's children can have no future. I'm just not willing to pretend I always know how to prevent this. Clearly, I don't know. As a Christian, I do know this: My job isn't to legislate a christian moral ethic, it's to introduce people to a living God, so that they make decisions based on their relationship with him. No one ever introduced anyone to God through judicial process. I'm called to remember: we are all sinners, and my neighbours abortion at 7 weeks is no more of a sin in God's eye's than my uncharitable and unkind response to her. It's that compassion and silence thing again.

I wish we were honest with everyone, the world is complex, God knows the answers, I don't always, and the best I can do is talk about the struggle and the God who does have the answers. And in the interim, if I don't have the answers, and I acknowledge that there are no optimal solutions, maybe I should stop trying to make things black and white, make my own moral decisions, and leave others to theirs. Even when I don't like their decisions.

cw

mrs.spit 5 pts

I think you are likely right, that my death was exceedingly likely if I wasn't induced when I was. I don’t think I’m on offence, I think most people understand why we choose what we choose, and that there honestly wasn’t much “choice” in the matter.

But that's my point. Some abortion legislation would not permit me to make the choice. Indeed, some commentators on this board have wanted to deny me the choice. I think there's an underlying sentiment that we should leave everything alone and let God sort it out.

I respect everyone's right to choose, for themselves and their families. If you want to let God sort it out, good for you. My husband and I felt that God was telling us to be induced. As my husband pointed out, the women who let God sort it out can't contribute to the post, because the sobering reality is, they are dead. Not what I felt was a reasonable, appropriate or even particularly Godly decision in the circumstances.

I don't have all the answers. I don't think I get to decide who lives and dies, because I'm not God. I don't know if a mother with Cancer should continue the pregnancy or abort. I don't know if women with tubal pregnancies or molar pregnancies or pregnancies with diagnoses incompatible with life should abort. I have no idea. There are no clear answers in these cases. If I learned anything from my son's life and death it's that there is little that is black and white, nothing that makes these situations anything other than simply anguishing and horrific, and that silence and compassion are always my best response. Indeed, they are the only response I can give. As I said before, these situations are a pain so vast and so deep there are no words.

My point in posting was threefold:

1. To address the over simplistic post from IvyBug about what I should have done. It's extraordinarily easy to make that decision, until someone invites you into her life and her pain and shows the world exactly how grey these things can be. To simply suggest that every woman can be induced, and every baby can be saved and should be saved is patently ridiculous.

2. To address the, and forgive my bluntness, the patronizing, offensive, self-righteous and downright mean spirited assertion that any woman who doesn't try and save her baby is "throwing his little body away like it doesn't matter". I cannot begin to tell anyone how painful and horrible and untrue this statement was, and how offensive I found it. As I said, we can have a discussion, and agree to disagree, but using terms like this doesn't move the debate anywhere. It's just mean. I think enough of us have watched Bambi to know what to do about saying mean things. This wasn’t what happened to our son, and I suspect that no family in this situation would treat their child with anything remotely approaching this level of contempt.

3. To point out that no woman should have to beg doctor, a judge, her peers, her priest or her family for the right to continue living when a pregnancy would cause death. To suggest that some women vote pro-choice for reasons other than being "baby killers". That these things are not always black and white, no matter how much we would like them to be. To say that, I, for one, do not have all the answers. I'm not even sure I know what the questions are, but that have more options to choose from is a better thing. And one I will now fight for.

thanks, cw

Grafted Branch 5 pts

Mrs. Spit...your story leaves me heavy-hearted. I have a comment on the bottom of page 3 that shares my story of "abortion for the life of the mother."

Your situation, however, sounds at the point of no return, IMHO. You weren't being asked to choose between your life and hers. Without you, there would have been no her--and your demise sounded imminent. I think a different scenario would be a cancer diagnosis that forces a woman to choose between treatment and gestation of an otherwise viable pregnancy.

The Lord bless you, keep you and make His face to shine upon you...

KarenVogel 5 pts

Karen - www.suburbancorrespondent.blogspot.com ( http://www.suburbancorrespondent.blogspot.com )

I still favor the argument espoused by a friend of mine many years ago with regards to capital punishment - she said, "It's not about what it does to the victim, it's about what sort of people it makes us..." That applies to abortion also. What sort of people would hurt a mother and child this way, rather than help them? What sort of a country are we, if we say we can't afford to help the most vulnerable members of our society?

I, too, used to be "pro-choice." But I have heard too many acquaintances say that, if they had it to do over, they never would have had an abortion.

And the pro-lifers are extremely active in helping people with crisis pregnancies. It's the few lunatics who get all the press, unfortunately.

Grafted Branch 5 pts

I'm concerned about a fallacy I see in the arguments of some on this thread. If one is pro-life, but then is unsure under certain "unjust" circumstances--then she isn't *really* pro-life at all, is she? It seems to me that she is just pro-choice with fewer choices--choices that she, in her own doctrine, has deemed appropriate.

I lost two in 2005. The first loss was an ectopic pregnancy, and it is the one that put me on my face before the Lord for over a year.

The pregnancy looked like a miscarriage at 7 weeks, but was discovered to be in my tube after that. I was rushed into deciding to abort with chemo. If I waited, my tube could burst and I could die. (I have 3 young girls to raise--people were quick to counsel me.)

If I waited, the blastocyst (and that's what my *former* doctor corrected me to call it when *I* called it a baby) might grow big enough to need to be surgically removed--thereby losing the tube. If I lived.

The conception didn't die easily. It took two rounds of chemo to "dissolve" it.

Afterward, I discovered the rare handful of cases in which such non-viable pregnancies have actually survived to produce living children.

That messed me up even more.

I've prayed fervently for the mind of Christ on this issue. And I still don't know if I'd have the courage when the time came, but I trust that His grace would be sufficient for me so that I would--because, given the extreme conflict that it produced in me to choose (even in the case of "to save the life of the mother"), next time, I would rather let it "play itself out" so that any intervention would be more clearly defensive, than offensive.

Because only God can weave life in the womb, when we abort we are sinning against Him. And unfortunately for some well-spoken women on this thread,

TRUTH IS NOT RELATIVE. Someday every knee shall bow and every tongue confess...

SarahJB 5 pts

Hello. I just stumbled upon this and it has been an interesting read. I am glad everyone has seemed to be very civil in the discussion of this. I went from pro-choice (pro-abortion) to pro-life after I became pregnant with my DH's and I first baby in 2001 the baby died in the womb at 7 1/2 weeks. We never knew wether the baby was a boy or girl and I will remember she/him forever and know one day I will hold that baby in my arms. Right now though the baby is with the eternal Father. I now have three living chlldren so far, and am blessed. I too am educated so I am no dummy on the issue. I am a Christian as well. There is no choice, I know at any month I could be pregnant with a baby (not an embryo or a fetus, a baby) and try to act accordingly in what medications I take for my migraines, etc. We also do not use BC of any kind. We believe that BC causes early abortions, please see Randy Alcorn's book "Does the Birth Control Pill Cause Abortions", I used BC in our early years of marriage until I felt convicted not to use it anymore and DH is in agreement with that. When I became pregnant with my third baby, our 1st son, my gestational diabetes reared it's ugly head almost immediately and of course I had to make an appt to meet with the high risk OB who told me they needed an U/S to make sure the pregnancy was viable, when I told them the baby was viable they looked at me like I was crazy. I was then told that after the u/s the dr would go over my options, I told them there were no options, the only option was to deliver a baby. He went on to tell me all the 'horrible' things that could happen and I said no we would be having this baby even if he or she only lived a few minutes. Soon after I 'fired' the dr. Some have said you don't know what you would do until you reach that situation but I know for me and my family abortion is never an option. Should something happen to me, then I will carry the baby until we can deliver safely. There is no choice between me and the baby-the baby lives. The only fear of death I have is not seeing my children grow up, but I can't trade that fear with knowing that I killed my pre-born child. I know that I will be living with the Father and that is a comfort. I also underwent a D&C at the behest of my first OB after my miscarriage had I know that was how many abortions are done and what it does to a baby I would not have consented, I would have waited or gone to another dr. By the way this isn't only a Christian perspective, my SIL who is Wiccan also believes in pro-life and also no BC.

I don't know if I will be returning here because of my duties as wife, mom, homeschooling teacher, my time on the computer is short but thank you for allowing me to share my opinion and read all of yours.

God bless.

OMSH 5 pts

My husband and I went to a ocal Crisis Pregnancy Center fundraiser several years ago and heard Carol Everett, author of the book, Blood Money: Getting Rich off a Woman's Right to Choose.

Her personal experience running a clinic was mind-boggling. One of the posters in this thread talked about the "coldness" - and that is the only way I can describe the experience she shared.

I am completely offended that anyone would make ANY money off this, much less "get rich" - and I don't know all the details myself, so I won't try to spout off inaccuracies.

Still, as opposed as I am to abortion, perhaps I need to better define abortion. What the women shared above is not what I view as abortion.

I am opposed to abortion when it is performed because a young girl/young woman was sexually active and became pregnant at an "inconvenient" time for her. I do not believe we should abort babies based on "convenience."

But this has been a good thread for me to read. As a Christian I do tend toward very black and white scenarios, but there is a lot of grey here.

-Heather
Personal Blog: www.ohmystinkinheck.com ( http://www.ohmystinkinheck.com )

OMSH 5 pts

...but in either of those situations I would have wanted to have the choice.

Blessings to you as well,

-Heather
Personal Blog: www.ohmystinkinheck.com ( http://www.ohmystinkinheck.com )

SearchingMama 5 pts

Heather, you wrote:
I cannot imagine being in a hospital setting and a doctor looking at a woman and saying, "I cannot allow you to be induced because the law calls it abortion and abortion is illegal."

And yet, that's exactly what my friend heard her doctors saying.
I know. Having been through two pregnancies myself, I can't be anything but pro-life, understanding how even that little "grain of rice" at the seven week ultrasound had a heartbeat and was already my son.
But having watched my friend's agony, I must vote pro-choice. On top of being told the horrible news about her baby, she was also told that she was too far along to terminate the pregnancy in her own state. So in addition to the medical traumas, there was political trauma on top--an unexpected trip out of state, with the cost of the procedure and hotel room. Talk about your worst travel ever.
Thanks for letting me know I gave you food for thought. That's all I wanted to do, because I rarely here strident pro-lifers willing to see shades of gray, or have answers for women in these situations. (And I really am searching for them. I don't love any of the currently available answers.) I rejoice for the women whose pre-term babies are thriving, but that's not realistic for every mom or every baby. And hence, to my mind, the need for choice.
Peace and blessings to you and all the seekers here.

DanaFiles 5 pts

I understand what you are trying to say, Catherine.

I can't imagine having six miscarriages. I couldn't handle the one I had 11 months after my son was born. I can only believe that God had better things in store for that baby. I'm positive that if I make it to Heaven I'll be reunited with him or her. That child was alive, with a heartbeat, receiving oxygen and nutrients from my body. The life of the child that grew inside me for such a short time was just as valuable as the lives of those killed in the Holocaust.

I know that Shannon meant no disrespect when she mentioned the Holocaust and I'll leave it at that. It's true, it will remain a matter of opinion, this comparison between the 48 million destroyed pregnancies (fetuses or embryos) and the 11 million people killed in the Holocaust. We will forever disagree. I get that.

heidis 5 pts

My wonderful, amazing, beautiful daughter is adopted.
She was nearly aborted. Her seventeen year old birthmother actually changed her mind in the stirrups. Instead she unselfishly, lovingly chose to give her baby life and allow my husband and I to become her parents.
Our daughter is seven years old; even now my heart catches in my throat when I think how close she came to not existing.
This world, my world would have been a dim place without her in it.
I'm pro-life and pro-adoption, the often overlooked choice.
franticallysimple.wordpress.com

ozarkslady 5 pts

I just want to thank everyone who contributed to this thread. I feel like I have been emotionally drained after reading it all, and much to my surprise I find that my staunchly held position when I began is now wavering back and forth on both sides of this coin. I never thought that would happen, despite my somewhat unique personal background on the subject.

I am especially touched by all of the stories that have been told in this thread and feel I can give a LITTLE something back to this thread by sharing my own, in order to maybe provide more food for someone else's thought. I hope someone can benefit from it in some way.

By the way, I've just finished writing this and want to apologize for the length of the post. I didn't realize the therapeutic effect it would have, and couldn't stop myself once I started. :)

I spent five years struggling with infertility with no known cause. I discovered I was finally pregnant quite by accident, since I began bleeding when I had no reason to be. There was never a chance to be excited and overjoyed for this long-awaited miracle, because of course the pregnancy was in a crisis state.

To cut to the punch, I discovered that it was a tubal or ectopic pregnancy, which has a zero percent chance of survival. I even begged and pleaded, in my ignorance and desperation, couldn't they please take it OUT of the tube where it was stuck and implant it properly in my uterus - please?? Of course the answer was no; it just isn't possible.

I was told that the only thing I could do was a medically necessary abortion, using a drug called methotrexate which would cause my body to reabsorb the pregnancy, basically. If I did not, the pregnancy would grow in the tube and eventually rupture it - which, at worst would kill me and at best cost me minor surgery and the loss of one fallopian tube (thereby cutting my fertility roughly in half).

Words cannot even begin to express the gamut of emotions that overtook me at this time. I won't even try. Suffice it to say that, left with absolutely no chance for my baby and the realization I would leave my husband widowed at such a young age, I consented to the "treatment" - now forever listed on my medical records as an abortion.

Fast forward six months later. I got sick two days before Christmas and began to suspect I might be pregnant again. Sure enough, I was. This time, I was overjoyed momentarily - a very brief moment, by the way - before realizing it could be a repeat of the previous situation. Due to the holidays, I was not able to see a doctor until a couple of days after Christmas.

Do I even need to tell you how tortured I was by the wait? How my emotions swung back and forth like a pendulum, going from "I can't go through this again" to "could it really be right this time" to "what if it ruptures while I'm waiting to see the doctor in a few days" and much more.

Well the doctor confirmed the pregnancy and began a series of tests every other day to see whether the pregnancy was going to "take". After arriving home from one of those tests, I got violently, violently ill. I could not move and was in intense pain. I managed to reach the phone and call for help. Yes, this time it was ectopic too - but the tube had ruptured and it was now a matter of rushing to save my life before I bled to death. The baby had, of course, already perished.

I did have surgery in time, obviously, since I am here to write this. For recovery, I was placed on the maternity ward. I won't go into detail about how fun it was to spend my grief-filled recovery on a floor full of new mothers and their infants. It should be obvious. It's probably also apparent how heartbreaking it is to read the medical description of your surgery and to see your five-years-in-the-making, prayed-for-constantly, hoped-for-continually baby referred to as "visible products of conception".

And I will never forget the humiliation I received when asking for such simple information about my "product of conception" as what it looked like, whether its gender was obvious, what condition it was in, and of course what happened to it after the surgery. I couldn't think of these things beforehand; I was literally dying and could not even put together a sentence. What a blow this was to my attempts to grieve when the time came.

Now, I knew for sure my fertility was reduced to about 65% since the one tube had been lost. After two more years of trying, though, we finally decided it was more important to be parents than to give birth. So we began the process of international adoption. Everything was done; we were just waiting on the referral of our specific child. Can you guess where this is going now?

Yes, we learned we were pregnant for a third time. After our last two experiences, there was NO joy in the discovery of this one. Only fear after fear after fear. We couldn't allow ourselves to begin celebrating. Not until we knew if it was strike three.

Fast forward again. This pregnancy was in the right place and was viable! We finally, finally got to rejoice over our now seven-years-in-the-making miraculous answer to prayer. Things went fine until week 32, when I was immediately hospitalized with severe pre-eclampsia and what eventually became a rare complication of pre-eclampsia known as HELLP Syndrome.

As others have already discussed, pre-eclampsia can only be cured by delivery. They tried to balance the baby's need for days in the womb against my health risk, but it only bought us five days. At 33w1d, my son was born at 3.5 pounds. He had a fair amount of complications, mostly related to his lungs, so he spent 31 days in the NICU before we all finally came home to be a family.

He is now three and has further complications which may or may not be a result of his early birth, low birth weight, and birth trauma - such as Asperger Syndrome, Generalized Anxiety Disorder, and Sensory Processing Dysfunction. We will never know the exact cause of these afflictions.

To start wrapping things up here (if anyone is even still reading, LOL), at my post-operative consultation, the doctor made it clear to me that a future pregnancy would be extremely risky - there is a 40 to 60% chance that HELLP Syndrome would reoccur. The real problem, she pointed out, is that it can occur at absolutely any time in the pregnancy – perhaps even earlier than it did in this one. She urged me to consider all of these facts in future family planning.

At this point, we desire only to complete the adoption we had begun in order to complete our family. The trauma of watching my child struggle to live for 31 days will never be forgotten. I am a weak and vulnerable person, and I simply could not survive watching another child struggle – perhaps even more severely than this one did, due to being born even earlier. I just don’t have the strength to do it, despite the fact that we long for more children. One adopted child will have to complete our family due to finances, unfortunately.

Yet still I find myself playing the “what if” game. Can I gamble on one more pregnancy? Look how wonderful my son is; what if I had never gambled on him? What might I be missing out on, just because I fear another premature birth – or worse, the possibility of having to choose between my life and my unborn child’s life? Because, left untreated (via delivery), HELLP Syndrome WILL kill me. What responsibility do I have to my firstborn to be sure I am around to raise him? If I got pregnant and was told that I would have to deliver before the date of viability, and I chose to keep the pregnancy anyway (thus gambling with my own life), is that fair to my firstborn? If I chose to terminate a pregnancy before the date of viability (arbitrary, we know, but let’s go with it for now), is that fair to the unborn child to choose my life over his or hers? What would I tell my son?

I am simply too flawed, too weak, too indecisive, too terrified, frankly, to face it all. And so our happy little family of three hopes and prays to become four through adoption if we are fortunate, but yet I mourn every day both the pregnancies I lost and those I have chosen to not have in the future.

So in summary, I find myself in the unique position of having experienced nearly all of the most commonly argued points on both sides of this debate (except rape, of course) – medical necessity, life of the mother vs. life of the child, premature birth and the baby’s struggle to live, adoption as an alternative, and more.

Before I read this thread, I had no doubts at all about my position. After reading every word you ladies had the courage to share, on both sides of this issue, I find myself completely conflicted and in some ways tormented by it all. I have just discovered that the wounds that I assumed were healing are indeed very raw and just under the surface. This is not a bad thing; this is how we heal and grow. And I have all of you to thank for aiding that process. I hope my story helps someone here in some small way.

mrs.spit 5 pts

Dear Bean's Mom:

This is a horrible club that you and I join, one that we don't want anyone to belong too. I'm sorry. We miss Gabriel too. I think we always will.

I'm sorry for your loss.

CW

katiefoxrocks 5 pts

I am pro-life for religious reasons, and have become even more so after having my first child this past year. I saw her ultrasound at 6 weeks, with little arms and legs and head; I saw her heart beating on the screen. We declined to perform the amniocentesis because we knew it wouldn't change anything, and I am blessed to have a daughter who is perfectly healthy.

However, as I grow older, I see more and more that very few things are black and white. Many of the women here who have shared their personal experiences here in these comments have made heart-wrenchingly difficult decisions, and I have never been in their position. I think it's important to recognize that many of these women would have preferred to do otherwise. I don't honestly know what I think about the legalization of abortion in situations like this, where the mother's life would be in danger. Also, I will say that rape is one of my biggest fears, and I can't imagine how I would feel if I were to become pregnant by a rapist. I trust God and His absolute sovereignty over life. I would hope that I would deliver that baby and either keep it or give it up for adoption. These issues are real for many women.

HOWEVER, it is important to note that these situations do not represent the vast majority of abortions being performed today. Most abortions, according to statistics, are being done on single women, most in their early twenties, many of them poor, and controversially, many of them ethnic minorities: African-Americans and Hispanics, primarily. These statistics should make us sit up and take notice. Perhaps in this sense, it is appropriate to use the word genocide - a genocide perpetuated not by the mothers themselves, but by our society that lacks systems to support these women and truth be told, is still incredibly systemically racist. Most abortion clinics are in minority neighborhoods, for example. And the abortion industry knows all this and is making enormous profits. As with almost everything in our country, it comes back to money.

For more statistics, you can go to www.abort73.com ( http://www.abort73.com ).

Obviously, these are hugely complex issues and our country has done a pretty crappy job of addressing the realities of the situation. I know one thing: I don't think I will be voting for anyone who plans on criminalizing abortion without setting up systems to create solutions and government help for these women and their families.

Clamo88 5 pts

I have not yet posted on this thread, because well, I am still reading all of the comments. But the times I have wanted to comment are usually in reference to medical issues. Are you aware that babies born before 26 weeks are rarely viable? It's true that people can try to deliver at 24 weeks, but do you really understand that their babies lungs are not sufficiently developed? That they cannot regulate their own body temperature which is important for life? And they often have huge problems with feeding? And that is just the major issues. Most of them don't survive. But some of them do.
We cannot pretend that hearing a short story about a woman's personal journey through pregnancy, abortion, life-threatening illnesses, or rape could ever help us understand what it is to be in that decision. We cannot really know all the data laid out before them by the doctor, bacuase it's usually a lot and very overwhelming. As a nurse who takes care of children with cancer and a mother, you cannot every truly know what's best for someone else's child. And these decisions about life and death, are so easy to make when it's someone elses life and death. Each experience is unique and has it's own journey. We cannot insinuate that someone threw out a "little body as if it didn't matter".
I really think all of this does not lie in morality, or someones religious beliefs because ultimatly those are left between you and God (Allah, Buddha, Krishna, Bahaullah). But they do come back to the idea of when does life begin. Is it conception, rapidly dividing cells? Cancer is a rapidly dividing cell that will grow, secrete things....Is it a heart beat? This is the gray area I find. Because even though I am a nurse, I do not know the answer. I can admit that I am unsure. But I will disagree with anyone who supposes it's so easy to decide what some else should do with their life or the life of their child/unborn fetus/embryo/whatever you want to call it. Because I have seen what the distraught a mother goes through when she struggles to decide if she should give her child the chemotherapy that has a 10% chance of curing but a 35% of harming the child even more to the point of death. And I know I am grateful that I do not have to make that same choice, because I don't know what I would do.

bukkweat 5 pts

I think you hit the nail right on the head when you said this:

"I recognize that crisis pregnancies are very real and very serious, and pro-lifers who dismiss the anguish of such situations are unkind and naive. "

I've seen a lot of "pro-lifers" who couldn't care less about the woman in trouble. I hate that. I've been there. I began to hate pro-lifers even though I considered myself one. I hated the holier-than-thou attitude that the hardcores had. I couldn't stand it.

"The precedent is set. When our right to choose bumps up against the right of another to exist peacefully, our choice is blocked by civilized law."

So true. I'm so glad that you're stating your argument in a civilized, educated fashion.

A woman does have the right to choose. The right to choose whether or not to have sex. If she chooses to have sex, she should have to deal with the consequences. Rape is a whole other issue, but the majority of abortions are NOT a product of rape.

Thank you for your post!

Maria Niles 5 pts

Hi Heather,

This is exactly the scenario of the "partial birth abortion" ban. It was upheld by the Supreme Court even though it does not contain an exemption for the health of the mother which every other law that places further limits on abortion has contained. So the scenario you describe of a doctor being in the position of having to tell a woman that he cannot perform a medically necessary procedure to save her life is now federal law.

I know a woman who had to have one of the procedures now banned in order to save her life and who, as a result, was able to have two very wanted children afterwards.

As Mrs. Spit has so generously demonstrated, rhetoric and reality are two very different things. I hope we can focus more on loving women faced with difficult decisions and less on judging them or telling them what we would do in their place. I appreciate hearing of your open mind and open heart.

alyssaroyse 5 pts

By allowing for both possibilities, one is inherently for choice. Thus, the conundrum.
___________
Alyssa Royse
JUST CAUSE
make some good news!
www.JustCauseIt.com ( http://www.JustCauseIt.com )

imissbean 5 pts

My very very wanted baby was almost 20 weeks along when we found out that she had no kidneys, no liver, and no digestive system. She would die without the life support of the umbilical cord. My choices were grim. Still, I chose to end any suffering before it could get worse. It could only be my choice, because she was my child. I am her parent... it is my decision. Just as the parent of a child on life support after a horrible car accident has to be the one to make the decision. There are many levels to this issue... people hear stories like mine and say, "Yes, but...."

There are no buts for me. If a prolife president appoints a prolife supreme court judge, then my right to be the parent is threatened.

Praise and Coffee 5 pts

who are facing an unplanned pregnancy without support. I've sat and cried with many.
My heart breaks for women who have had an abortion and now live with torment...I've sat with them and cried also.

I am pro-life.

I have a son who is Type 1 diabetic and could possibly benefit from fetal stem cell research.

I'm still pro-life.

I have a friend whose life is the result of a rape, she is pro-life.

I love that we can discuss this as women. I love that Shannon was brave enough to take on this very controversial discussion with such grace and obvious concern.

I believe that if we are pro-life, we should put our actions where our beliefs lie and make a difference in the life of a child or a woman who has had to deal with the subject head-on, no matter what her choice.

Sue
www.praiseandcoffee.com ( http://www.praiseandcoffee.com )

sassymonkey 6 pts

I've always wondered that. Why can't people be pro-life and pro-choice at the same time?

I'm personally pro-choice for many reasons. I understand why people are pro-life but for me there's just way too much grey in the world for it to be a black and white thing. And I've never understood why it has to be.

So in the face of all the grey matter on this issue why can't people be both?

Not addressing this to you personally Heather - it's just something I've always wondered and your comment compelled me to comment even though I was determined not to on this topic. lol

Sassymonkey ( http://sassymonkey.ca/ ) and Sassymonkey Reads ( http://sassymonkeyreads.wordpress.com/ ).

Chris Arsenault 5 pts

I appreciate that you took the time to respond. I could disagree with almost every point your post - and demonstrate invalid logic, but I won't. I don't really expect you to have a change of heart about this, for whatever personal reasons you hold. Not all points of view are valid - someone has to be right, but such incongruity is your problem and not mine. I need to move along.

I do want to address though one last thing you mentioned.

But no one has granted you the right to impose your morals on anyone else's body.

Next time you look at an ultrasound image - or see a newborn baby, remember your statement because abortion is about the body inside the women's body, and you're imposing your morals upon them.

And they can't defend themselves.

And I don't think any of us really want to live in a world in which the government can tell us what to do with our bodies.

You already do.

Life, and Love is a choice too.

OMSH 5 pts

Mrs. Spit wrote:
"I'm concerned that if we call it something else, anti-abortion legislation may make it impossible for me to choose my life over a child’s, in medically necessary circumstances. I cannot see how we could possibly write laws that would contain every single exception possible."
---
Wow.

This gives me so very much to chew on. I am absolutely Pro-Life, but in your words I hear someone that is Pro-Life too, but perhaps would not vote anything but Pro-Choice. Of course, if I'm wrong, please correct me.

I've never considered a situation where a child is "taken" because he/she is endangering the mother as abortion. Because of my perception, I've never considered that anti-abortion legislation could keep a mother from saving her own life (literally - such as in your case) by taking her child (who at that time is an adversary, even without knowing it).

Is there any legislation that has been put forth, put on the table, or considered EVER that even leans in that direction? I cannot imagine being in a hospital setting and a doctor looking at a woman and saying, "I cannot allow you to be induced because the law calls it abortion and abortion is illegal."

I'm just thinking out loud now, of course, but wow...I'm stumped on exactly how that could/would be defined.

Still chewing on it.

-Heather
Personal Blog: www.ohmystinkinheck.com ( http://www.ohmystinkinheck.com )

kareybeth 5 pts

Thanks for voicing so well the way many of us feel about this issue! Nobody complains about the lack of choice in the arena of theft or murder or even speeding down the highway, but somehow the unwanted consequences of unprotected sex make people a little sensitive about their "choices". I'm 19 weeks pregnant right now - married, absolutely monogamous, well beyond 16 years old - and I have been amazed at the life within me. I'm with you on this one.

put-it-on-the-list 5 pts

I started out militantly, unswervingly, unthinkingly pro-life in my militant, unswerving, unthinking youth.

Then I married a man whose sister had had a heartbreaking abortion.

Lynne was very much a wanted baby. Her mother had had a miscarriage before her. Her birth was anticipated, awaited; she was planned and everyone could hardly wait to meet her.

But because hers was a high-risk pregnancy due to the miscarriage, they ran a few tests. And that's how they found out Lynne was anencephalic. That's a $15 medical term, but to you and me, it means she was developing entirely without a brain. No way to sustain life, not even far enough for her to be born. Lynne was absolutely going to die in utero. And to complicate matters, her mom has an unusually small pelvic opening, so any baby of any size has to be delivered via C-section.

Her mom thus had the unenviable decision to make: continue to carry a child that absolutely could not survive and would put her own life at risk by dying and having to be delivered by C-section, or abort her.

I thank God that I have never walked in those shoes. And I am also thankful that it is possible to get an abortion in a case like hers.

I'm not a radical pro-choicer by any means. I absolutely do not believe that an abortion should be used as birth control. I believe that life begins at conception. But I also believe that this world is fallen, that horrible things can and do happen, and that having a safe medical procedure available for when the unthinkable occurs is essential.

This is an issue full of all manner of gray areas. And my stance is firmly in the middle of the gray. I believe in life, absolutely. But I believe a woman should be able, in cases like these, to make a choice, however heartbreaking it is (and still is).

Seeing this forum, where this issue has been discussed so rationally and so compassionately, has just about renewed my faith in people on both sides of this issue.

Lisa
http://put-it-on-the-list.blogspot.com/

lauriewrites 5 pts

with this combative tone. In fact, I hesitate to respond for fear of receiving another unnecessarily incendiary response, but you're attacking good women, and that bothers me.

You have repeatedly assailed "feelings" in your comments, and yet your ranting comments are some of the most emotionally-driven I've ever seen.

Right now, you're only avoiding what apparently you can't adequately respond to, which means you can neither provide evidence nor refute my claims.

With regard to outrage Catherine - what are you expecting to see?

Again, you dictate what someone is doing and criticize, and then pose a combative question. Bad move.

You may get better results if you calm down.

Laurie
LaurieWrites ( http://lauriewrites.typepad.com )

Catherine Morgan 5 pts

I have to respectfully disagree Dana. We should probably agree to disagree...But, an embryo and/or unborn baby is not living or breathing. And, I really, really, hate the comparison with the Holocaust...there is no comparison as all.

Let me just add...I had six miscarriages before I had a successful pregnancy and gave birth to my son. I believe that each of those miscarriages were the "soul" of my son trying to get to me. I do not believe that they were six different souls trying to get to me. God works in mysterious ways (and even the most religious people can not claim to know when the soul enters the body)...and to me that is when life begins...we are our souls, not our bodies. I have the souls that are meant to be with me...my six lost pregnancies were not children I was meant to have (as much as it hurt at the time, I can see that now).

I don't ask you to believe as I do. But in my heart, I know what is true for me.

Contributing Editor Catherine Morgan
CatherineBlogs ( http://www.catherineblogs.com/ ), The Political Voices of Women ( http://politicsanew.com/ ), Care2 Election Blog ( http://www.care2.com/politics/features/ )

MrsDugger 5 pts

Genesis 9:6 6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

DanaFiles 5 pts

Catherine, pre-born (or unborn) babies are living, breathing human beings, too. It just so happens that their mother's body sustains that life. An abortion destroys that life. There is no "spinning" of facts here.

I have relatives who were victims of the Holocaust. It's devastating. The acts committed during WWII are unforgivable. They were forced from their homes in Poland and sent to concentration camps and killed just because they were Polish Jews. And so many abortions are performed just because the babies were unwanted. Abortion is a devastating act, too.

Centsible Shopper 5 pts

Alyssa:

The reason that some (myself included) would object to that line of reasoning is that--you may even agree with me on this--some things are simply *wrong*. For instance, I'll make the assumption that we agree that murder is wrong. However, in the case of murder, someone could use that very same line of reasoning to say, "Okay, murder is wrong for *you*. So don't do it." In reality, most would agree that murder is, simply, *wrong*.

I'm not sure which poster it was, but someone mentioned earlier that "we can't legislate morality." Hmm... really? Isn't the one area we legislate *most* morality? Murder, rape, child abuse, and many other areas are very distinct *moral* issues, yet we still legislate them (or I should say, *against* them) quite clearly.

alyssaroyse 5 pts

THANKS. Not for backing "me," which isn't the point. But for valuing peoples right and freedom to think and feel as they wish, without meaning everyone has to think, feel and act the same way. THAT's the worlds I want to live in, and that you help to create by encouraging hard discussions and respecting divergent opinions.

That gives me HOPE!
___________
Alyssa Royse
JUST CAUSE
make some good news!
www.JustCauseIt.com ( http://www.JustCauseIt.com )

rocksinmydryer 5 pts

I don't think it's fair or productive to make statements what's going on in another person's head. I think one of the main reasons it's hard to resolve our disagreements on this issue is because we tend to project our own assumptions and beliefs on others. Let's move forward by speaking boldy about what's in our OWN hearts, and let others speak for themselves.

Shannon @ Rocks In My Dryer
BlogHer Contributing Editor, Mommy and Family
rocksinmydryer.typepad.com
bloggygiveaways.com

alyssaroyse 5 pts

And your right to discuss them is JUST.

Everyone's are. Without dialog, nothing changes. That, I believe is the point of this thread, this site, my site and of having conversations in the first place. The problem is that there is a fundamental impasse here, always will be, I suspect. Because people often use their religion to define morality for everyone. Or their own moral code to define morality for everyone. And that creates a polemic in which a large population are inherently marginalized and put on the defensive.

As a society, we are bound by the laws of our society. Abortion, currently, is legal. According to the laws of our society, it is a legal act.

Do we all disagree on that. Yes. Does each party have the right to lobby and vote for what they believe? Yes. It is what makes "us" who we are, and i will defend the rights of free speech, voting etc, until my last dying day.

I believe very strongly in the right to choose what happens in my body. From who I have sex with to what I eat to what medicines I take, and my right to deal with the unintended consequences of either of those things.

There is a great deal of question in people's minds as to when something is "alive" and when it isn't. For many people, they find that answer in religious text. But there is - thankfully - no religious text that defines our nation. For others it is a logistical decision, "could this thing live outside my body?" That creates a very different framework.

I am IN NO WAY opposed to people opposing abortion. If you are opposed to abortion, then don't have one. But you do not have the right to tell me what to do with my body. And we have to be able to expect the intellectual framework that allows many people to believe that NO, it is not a baby at the moment of conception.

I respect your right to say that it is, and would not tell you what to do with your body based on the fact that I don't happen to agree with you.

For the record, we did make a decision, as a nation, about this issue. We decided that abortion was legal, and that is should be safe and available to women who need it. We also decided how long you have to make up your mind about it, virtually eliminating (and rightfully so, I think) late term abortions when the fetus is decidedly viable and therefore a baby. In so doing, we affirmed the rights of women everywhere to be in charge of their bodies and their reproductive lives.

What we did not do is tell women that they must have abortions. No one is forcing you to do something that you are morally opposed to doing in your own life. But no one has granted you the right to impose your morals on anyone else's body.

And I don't think any of us really want to live in a world in which the government can tell us what to do with our bodies.
___________
Alyssa Royse
JUST CAUSE
make some good news!
www.JustCauseIt.com ( http://www.JustCauseIt.com )

Chris Arsenault 5 pts

#1. You didn't answer my question. Were my babies murdered by God? If my babies were taken from me before they were born for no other reason than "God's will"...then with your theory, God murdered my babies (and millions of others that are lost for no other medical explanation).

I'm sorry for the loss of your two babies, but God is sovereign and omnipotent. He has the power to give life and take life. We cannot take innocent life - that's still illegal, except for abortion.

The point of your contention is "for no other reason than "God's will". Do you know what God's will is?

Here's what I read this morning: - The Letter to the Church in Thyatira:

You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. So I will cast her on a bed of suffering and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. (Revelation 2:20-23 NIV)

Does God kill? Absolutely. I can't think of a greater killing than when the earth was flooded, but only Noah and his family were saved. The whole population of the earth died with the exception of 8 humans. That's a lot of death. but was it just?

To be a murderer, the death must be unjust. Jesus Christ was unjustly accused and put to death. That's murder. But if God raised Him from the dead, then your children too shall be raised on the last day. It's the second death that's final.

God must be just - He cannot tolerate injustice. Because God is ominiscient, He can see and intervene to provide justice - like he did for Noah, and Christ (who's physical family line came through the flood).

Do you know what God's will is? Try Matthew 7:21-23 and John 14:6.

#2. I think I already explained in my above comment my feelings on the differences between embryonic life and human life, so please refer to that.

The abortion debate is not about feelings, nor theories, but about behavior. Right now, you're only avoiding what apparently you can't adequately respond to, which means you can neither provide evidence nor refute my claims.

With regard to outrage Catherine - what are you expecting to see?

Personally, I am against all IVF and fertility treatments because of the moral and practical implications. It creates a third party market for humans (it establishes a market in humanity - slavery!) That is another argument.

The other issue that is confusing to me, is the lack of desire to help these children once they are born. ...How is this justified? Shouldn't the life of the unborn child be protected even after it is born?

I was talking with a state representative who has many unwed mothers in her district - she paraphrased their claim "Where are the pampers - what you gonna do for me?" My wife had the perfect reply - "where are the penises?"

The abortion dialogue avoids putting the responsibility where it belongs - on men and women together. Why?

Abortion actually does the opposite of what it intends because it offers the lure of a solution for sexual risk taking when it comes to intercourse. The women gets to cut off the man's offspring (Roe emasculates men legally - and men don't grow up because of this...but I digress) which is a false sense of security because many abortions are coerced. Erin's tale on this thread talked about an abusive relationship and I believe she said not a day goes by she doesn't think about her abortion - so she's shackled to that abusive man. That's sad, and to Erin, very real.

I've talked to a lot of folks and there's no doubt that the days are coming when the humanity of the unborn will be undeniable. Even Frances Kissling and Kate Michaelman understand what is happening, given their editorial in the LA Times on Jan 22, 2008.

Why do I do this? I have friends who've cycled through severe bouts of depression - who've had nervous breakdowns from their abortions. One friend had an abortion at the fifth month. She called it a baby, you used the word "baby" yourself when referring to your own miscarriages. Is it okay to kill our babies?

Social injustices and caring for children and appeals to pity don't change the truthfulness of what occurs. And the photos of late term abortions, if true, show a betrayal of trust and a tragedy of epic proportions.

The younger generation is growing up to condemn the older who choose because they survived while their siblings did not.

Yes - I survived and two of my siblings did not.

But instead of asking the Lord - we can ask our parents the haunting question - why did you kill my brother or sister? Did you want to kill me too?

Love and Life is a choice too.

DarlaM 5 pts

Having read all the posts carefully, there is one common denominator. And that is the fact that most people are basing their views on how they FEEL. Like how we FEEL should ever weigh into a decision of such magnitude like life or death. We cannot trust our FEELINGS enough to make a right decision.

Having said this, I am not undermining the pain that some of these women have gone through. I do not pretend to understand it, and I truly do have compassion. I know women on all sides of this issue: ones who have lost a baby at all stages; ones who have never been able to have a baby; ones who have had to adopt; and ones who have had an abortion. The pain they went through was excruciating. And I know some who have made decisions based on their personal FEELINGS.

There are definitely grey areas in life. However, there are also some black and white areas - and the decision of life or death is a black and white issue. We, as humans, are not able to make decisions of such complexity. We cannot possibly see the end from the beginning, we can only see the now. The man-made law to choose on such a complex issue as this has only created a slippery slope.

I have never had to go through this pain. However, I decided a long time ago that should anything happen to me like an unplanned pregnancy, even after a rape, that the right decision would still be to carry the baby. Would I have done it? I don't know, but I do believe that if I would have chosen to end a pregnancy that I would have done so believing that I was wrong and WEAK. I do not ever want to get to a point where my weakness, or pain, justifies absolutes.

I like how Mamacita said it best: Pregnancy is not the choice, it's the result. Just because the law gives us that choice, does not make it right to end it. FEELINGS, EMOTION, or WEAKNESS do not supercede absolutes. It's scary to think some people believe our feelings carry this much weight.

On a side note about pain, there are other ways we experience pain that we have no CHOICE in. I have experienced such pain in other areas. There would be no greater pain to me than to lose my child in ANY way. Let's not let our man-made ability to choose on this issue make us think it's okay to choose against life.

SearchingMama 5 pts

You wrote:

Deal kindly with the broken. There but for the Grace of God go all of us.

I'm adding this to my sig file. Beautifully said. Thank you for sharing with the blogosphere what was clearly an excruciating time. Please accept my condolences. That's my birthday too, and now I'll share thoughts of you and prayers for your baby on that day as well.