Women, Race and Hillary Clinton

Indulge me a bit in posting on "old news", but there's a discusion going on in the blogosphere about the Senator, with the basis in feminism. On BooMan Tribune, Arthur Gilroy has decided that women, particularly left-leaning, blogging women, hate Clinton because:

They resented her success. They resented the template ITSELF. To some degree, the fact that this woman had become a truly DOMINANT woman...not just independent,. but dominant over the lives of many, many men as well as children and women pressed buttons in both of their heads that had been implanted in their early "I ENJOY being a girl!!!", "Play with those damned dolls or ELSE" youth.

You have to read the entire post to fully appreciate that women, according to Gilroy, can not make a decision regarding Clinton because we're preconditioned.

Hijole!

Over at BlogHer, there's been a very robust discussion on the Senator. Morra Aarons submitted the entry Why Thirtysomething Women need Hillary Clinton, and Why She Needs Us. She exhorts us to vote for Clinton for president, because "it's time". Ironically, the same arguement Gilroy used for why lefty, blogging females hate Clinton, Aarons uses as to why women should vote for Clinton:

I think many young women are coming around to Hillary because despite our hesitancy to re-join the Feminist Majority, we know it’s time. Oddly enough, I think it took a reminder from the godmother of feminism, Gloria Steinem, to wake us up. As (male) uber-blogger Markos put it: “You underestimate that sympathy at your own peril. If I found myself half-rooting for her given the crap that was being flung at her, is it any wonder that women turned out in droves to send a message that sexist double-standards were unacceptable?”

It’s time. Older women have understood that and overwhelmingly support Clinton, but younger women have been slower to support Hillary. I think, though, we are realizing that perhaps having a woman in the White House will let us breathe a little easier at work.

These posts, in and of themeselves would be interesting enough if I was white. But I'm not. I'm black and there is a high level of disinterest of how racism AND sexism can effect a woman's outlook among white females. Especially of white females of certain economic classes and educational levels.

Gloria Steinem, the so-called Godmother of Feminism, wrote a piece for the NYT titled, Women are Never Frontrunners. Somehow, this title was chosen, despite the fact that Sen. Clinton has been the frontrunner since she announced her campaign. Indeed, the media declared her the frontrunner before she announced her campaign. Steinem's article does what most white feminist do, dismiss race. After all, black men were given the right to vote before women were. She neglects the Jim Crow south. She doesn't mention the inherent privilege that Hillary Rodham Clinton grew up with.

So why is the sex barrier not taken as seriously as the racial one? The reasons are as pervasive as the air we breathe: because sexism is still confused with nature as racism once was; because anything that affects males is seen as more serious than anything that affects “only” the female half of the human race; because children are still raised mostly by women (to put it mildly) so men especially tend to feel they are regressing to childhood when dealing with a powerful woman; because racism stereotyped black men as more “masculine” for so long that some white men find their presence to be masculinity-affirming (as long as there aren’t too many of them); and because there is still no “right” way to be a woman in public power without being considered a you-know-what.

I’m not advocating a competition for who has it toughest. The caste systems of sex and race are interdependent and can only be uprooted together. That’s why Senators Clinton and Obama have to be careful not to let a healthy debate turn into the kind of hostility that the news media love. Both will need a coalition of outsiders to win a general election. The abolition and suffrage movements progressed when united and were damaged by division; we should remember that.

Yes, we should remember that, but Steinem spends the rest of the article, carefully not remembering that. At Jack and Jill Politics, dnA gives us a post titled Access to Power with the conclusion:

Women like Steinem are quick to invoke "the sisterhood" as a reason to vote for Hillary Clinton, but black women see few of the same benefits that white women do; yet they're still expected to feel (and act on) gender solidarity with people who essentially ignore the issues facing them. Unless it involves some high profile figure like Imus.

Indeed, that is exactly what Aarons did in her BlogHer post. I responded to the BlogHer post (my post is most definitely longer):

Gloria Steinem's NYT article was clearly directed to young, white females. Of privilege. She lives in a headspace that I could never occupy, would never want to occupy. Her arguments were specious at best and all I took away from the article was that her oppression was greater than my oppression. (I'm sorry...I should stop here and mention that I read the article yesterday and got pissed. As the day wore on, I was downright livid at Steinem's presumptions, assumptions and petty pitifulness.)

Over at TalkLeft there was a post Steinem's article. One person noted that Steinem seem to declare that racism is dead. I posted:

But Steinem is so incredibly wrong on this front. White women are more often "given" much more leeway, advantages and opportunities than any minority regardless of gender and if anyone should know that she should. For someone like Steinem to actually say that is laughable and insulting. Look at feminism, as a movement. Did Steinem ever have to face police dogs, fire hoses and be scared of lynching to get equal rights for women?

Didn't think so.

Other than that, the subject wasn't broached, yet ageism became the focus. On liberal blogs, in general, the subject is very rarely touched. And pointed comments like mine are usually ignored.

rikyrah's response at BlogHer gives you a little political perspective on how white women have more access than blacks in general.

There are, what, 9 White Female Governors?

1 Black male Governor.

NEVER a Black Female Governor.

There are what, 15 White Female Senators.

1 Black Male Senator.

Only 1 Black Female Senator.

Who are the biggest beneficiaries of Affirmative Action?

Sure in hell isn't Black folk..

Oh yeah, WHITE WOMEN.

Black women are only 'Sisters' when it's convenient. If not, our concerns are not addressed, like in that Steinem piece. Black women were INVISIBLE in that piece. She completely and deliberately ignores White Privilege - how convenient for her.

I usually like to keep my isms separated as, the liberal blogosphere has a horrible habit of ignoring one argument to bring up another to make a point. In this case, it's a little difficult, as the Clinton campaign has been quite active in the racism front. Does she get a pass on this because she's a woman? Because she's white. Judging from the media coverage and unreaction in the liberal blogosphere, it seems the answer is 'yes' to both. Female bloggers who are dismissing the sexism regarding Clinton's choking up moment, are extremely quiet on the campaign's race-baiting statements.

That's not to say that I would expect them to speak up. After all, someone like Jane Hamsher, who would be a Clinton contemporary, now has a very strong reputation as a racist in the black and Latino blogosphere. Her site seems to largely condone racism and since I've been oh-so-lucky as to meet some of the guest bloggers there, I'm going to say that this is something that is entrenched. I'm certainly not going to disabuse anyone of the notion that FDL is a blog with racist bloggers, when my experiences with face to face meetings reaffirms that.

While female bloggers recently gave us entries on Feminism, all of them took Steinem's lead with dismissing or ignoring racism. We've gotten rallying cries, as women, to back up Clinton, because she is female. These are the same women who tell me that black people who vote for Obama because he's black are short-sighted. I fail to see why that's not quite a double-standard. However in the comment sections of media sites, to blogs, to random discussions, these double-standards are enforced to the point of becoming conventional wisdom.

I think it's important for people to understand that many black people don't put the Clinton's a pedestal as the media and the Clinton's will have you believe. As I wrote on BlohHer:

But let's take that experience at face value and ignore the fact that she's basically asking us to elect her to a 3rd term...When someone like Clinton wants something from me, my first (selfish) question is, "What have you done for me lately?" With Clinton (Bill or Hillary), it's "What have you done for me period?" Because every core supporter they could have had (Blacks and Gays specifically), they threw under the bus long ago to strengthen their insider ties. At least Bill could make you feel good while he screwed you over. His mantra was always, "Later...your time will come later." Well, it's "later" and Sen. Clinton has most certainly picked up that refrain. What exactly are we waiting for? More backroom deals? More compromises that still leave many Americans with unequal rights?

With the race-baiting tactics from her campaign this past month, are black women supposed to ignore that and history and still back Clinton because she's a woman?

Let's keep in mind that Clinton is not the first woman to run for president and that Obama is not the first black person to run president. Indeed, in 1972 Shirley Chisolm was the first black woman from a major party to ran for president. In 2004, Carol Moseley Braun another black woman ran for president.

Would Steinem still back Clinton if Clinton was a black woman? Did Steinem back Moseley Braun's candidacy for president as she did her run for Senate?

Would the white women of New Hampshire have rallied behind Clinton if she was black?

Would female bloggers even be discussing Feminism if Clinton wasn't white?

For my part, just poking around these internets, I'm going to say the answers to all of my questions is 'no'.

Submitted by fabooj (view blog

) on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 11:49

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Faboo, thanks for continuing the conversation

That kicked off on Morra's post, "Why thirtysomething women need Hillary Clinton and why she needs us." As I mentioned over there, I'm stuck on a short deadline and cannot break away, but I find your commens eloquent and I've placed your post in the BlogHer headlines on the front page today so that as many people can join in as possible. It's great to have you here!

Best,
Lisa

Lisa Stone
BlogHer Co-founder
Surfette

Submitted by Lisa Stone on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 11:28

Faboo Thank YOU!

Finally a Sister's voice is heard on this issue. I almost was beginning to feel like that being Black and a Woman cancelled itself out. There was no way I could separate the two and not be seen as a traitor to the race or be dismissed by the feminist network. I must say when I am in conversations with my Black Sister-friends I am the first to raise my voice about being a woman and what that means in terms of gender politics. But I have to tell you when I am talking with my White Sister-friends and other White women about this race, I instinctively feel Black and not so much female. Meaning Being Black in those conversations trumps being a Woman. And that for me is the rub. I do so appreciate your laying this out in a way that both sides can see how we are sort of trapped in the middle--both sides being of the same economic and educational backgrounds but of different races.

Love,
Babz
www.lovebabz.blogspot.com Personal
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Submitted by Lovebabz on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 12:17

I know exactly what you mean

Too many of my black and Latino friends are the first to dismiss or ignore feminism, as they feel it's a comfort that only white women (if they're not Republicans--to be general) feel the need to discuss. As we're all college educated, middle-class, raised in the 'burbs females, I couldn't understand the resistance for a while. Then I started speaking to my female family members and it clicked. Black women have always had the need to be strong and stand up for themselves. Whether to protect ourselves or our familes, it needed to be done, so it got done. White women, especially those of financial privilege have never had to do that. They have a choice and a lot more leeway in certain matters.

Many black, professional women will tell you that they were raised with the adage, "You have to be 5 times better than any man because you're a woman. You have to be 20 times better than employee because you're black." We've all had those experiences at work were we've been told that we have "an attitude problem", where a white woman is given pass for being downright horrendous. We're told to "smile more", and get spoken to because we spent 3 minutes talking to a coworker while on the clock. Meanwhile, you can point to a white female in your office who spends way too much time on her cell phone and nothing is ever said to her.

Speaking with black or Latino friends, we've all had those experiences and can relate to that subtle, yet accepted and ingrained corporate racism. Meanwhile, get a group of professional women together who are of different races and yes, there has to be explanation of race because for the most part, white (and Asian) women don't get that added level of pressure.

"I am so perfect so divine so ethereal so surreal. I cannot be comprehended except by my permission. I mean...I...can fly like a bird in the sky." Ego Trippin' by Nikki Giovanni
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Submitted by fabooj on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 13:03

Totally get this

Thanks for putting this difference in such plain terms. Very, very clear.

As a Jew, there are situations in which I've felt similarly, in terms of added pressure. I suppose anytime someone possesses a characteristic that is so distinctive that it's results in some kind of bias or separate treatment, those subject to that treatment develop coping and/or survival tools.

Very interesting comment, Faboo Mama. You really have me thinking. Thanks.

Jill
Writes Like She Talks

Submitted by Jill Miller Zimon on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 13:38

OHH!! EXACTLY!!

I couldn't figure out how to articulate what I ws trying to tell my whtie friends, and you hit it right on the head!!
I appreicate your post - we've been having discussions about this for days and I feel like I'm talking in circles they want me to seperate being back from being a woman and I just simply CANT. And its hard to get that point across..

be peaceful, be poetry
http://blaquepen.com/wobl

Submitted by Raquita on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 15:21

Thank you Lisa

Morra's post is most certainly being talked about, as I've received it from women of all races and sexualities. The entire subject is not, forgive the pun, so black and white. One of my lesbian friends (she's Latino) has an even more unique view of the situation and I've encouraged her to post her thoughts here.

Submitted by fabooj on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 12:18

I hope this isn't too bold or naive

Or just doesn't sound plain stupid - all of which could be true. But since you definitely have a perspective that, although I say I can understand I of course will never live out, what DO you think is the way to handle, neutralize, eliminate or otherwise improve the slights (and I know, that's an understatement) that you see?

I agree with you 100% re: we don't vote for Clinton because she's a woman, but I've also written that it shouldn't be so hard for women who will never vote for Clinton to recognize the role she's playing as a woman in politics who has made it to where she is.

I'm Jewish - I wouldn't vote for Joe Lieberman. But I'm glad he was selected as a VP candidate and won the popular vote on the Gore/Lieberman ticket in 2000.

Clinton's only getting my vote if she's in the general election - but that's because, compared to any of the GOP possibilities, there's no choice from where I sit.

I hate the one-dimensional nature of the Internet on issues like this because if you don't know one another, the tone, the sincerity in asking this question might not be there. But I hope you'll trust me when I say it is.

If we could wind back time, and you could outline how these conversations and analyses of what's going on should play out, what do you think they would look like/sound like?

Thanks, really.

Jill
Writes Like She Talks

Submitted by Jill Miller Zimon on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 12:37

Important conversation we are having

Jill,

I don't know if this will help with your questions but I wrote a post looking at these issues prior to Gloria Steinem's piece so it might help with your question of if we could wind back time.

I'm glad you are asking your questions and that we are engaging in dialogue because I think it is so very important.

PopConsumer
Beyond Help

Submitted by Maria Niles on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 13:07

Thanks, Maria!

I'm going right over there to read. :)

Jill
Writes Like She Talks

Submitted by Jill Miller Zimon on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 13:35

I don't know

I like that you added that one-dimensionalism the Internet gives to these arguments. It is hard to explain details in this medium because there are people who don't like long posts (and goodness my posts are ridiculous at times) and people often read only what they want to read.

I know that I don't like to be pigeonholed and I hate that for these discussions I feel like I'm pigeonholing white and Asian females. I try to make a point that I am speaking in broad generalities and that I do not presume to speak for all black females. (LOL...that's a lot of Is)

My suggestions in meatspace haven't panned out and Lord knows I've been trying to get my point across in cyberspace since '86. I can't make people write on what they don't know or experience. I'm never going to post about creating a mega-horsepower engine or being a waitress. I can only add another level to the discussion. If that helps people see it from another person's viewpoint, then that's enough for me.

Does that make sense?

Submitted by fabooj on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 13:16

Yes it makes sense

Re: what you wrote here:

"I can't make people write on what they don't know or experience. I'm never going to post about creating a mega-horsepower engine or being a waitress. I can only add another level to the discussion. If that helps people see it from another person's viewpoint, then that's enough for me.

Does that make sense?"

Absolutely. I know exactly what you mean about the inability to make people write about what they don't know or experience. We cannot read or know everything. We can't LIVE everything. But I'm sure glad that we're finding these places to write as much as we can and that I'm finding this place to read what I wouldn't otherwise know about.

I think I was hoping for some suggestion on how to improve myself when it comes to analyzing incidences that arise. I wrote about Clinton's Moment and all - and I never singled her out as white, but did I, unwittingly, only write about it as though it didn't matter to anyone else, or as though no other 'isms" are relevant? Very possibly. That's not something that can change easily, I think - but having you write what you have and conversing will sure make it at least a little more recognizable to myself next time - I HOPE!!

Thanks. :)

Jill
Writes Like She Talks

Submitted by Jill Miller Zimon on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 13:34

Morra's Huffington Post piece

Thanks for this thoughtful piece, fabooj and for continuing the conversation.

Morra wrote a post incorporating responses to her original post here, including from fabooj, and continuing the discussion at Huffington Post. There is more good conversation going on there, as well.

PopConsumer
Beyond Help

Submitted by Maria Niles on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 13:14

I'm a white woman of a certain education
level and class

and I'm fascinated by the nexus of racism and sexism and how this election has affected black women. It's not that we're disinterested. It's just that we're uninformed. Your posts and Maria's on Popconsumer have been very enlightening. THANK YOU for sharing your perspective.

(and by the way, Gloria Steinem pissed me off too but for different reasons)

Amy S.
Up With Moms

Submitted by abswyg on Sat, 01/12/2008 - 15:19

Something to Add

I've said a few times and have taken criticism for saying that I think IF YOU FIRST AGREE WITH THEIR POLITICS that it's acceptable to vote for Clinton because she's female or Barack Obama because he is black. I wonder if it wouldn't be a lot easier for many of us if one or the other of them was a black female. I think it's very important that one first agrees with their politics, because otherwise the vote is based entirely on gender or race, and I'm not sure how I feel about that. If Condaleeza Rice was running for the presidency, I would have a hard time voting for her, despite my desire to support both blacks and women. I totally disagree with her politics, though I admire her for attaining the position she has.

I've spoken out in favor of Hillary Clinton on the basis of her gender. I also like Barack Obama quite a bit, and I want very much for our presidents to not all look the same. I personally feel he's not quite ready. I believe he will be president some day. I felt the same way about John Edwards in the last cycle.

Regardless of how I feel, though, I'm glad you took the time and effort (because I know these posts, especially well-researched posts such as yours, take a lot of time) to put your opinions out there. There are a lot of factors that go into how we self-identify, and race and gender play different parts in your experience than they do in mine (I'm white, and I'll admit, I haven't given my race much thought in my daily life). Your position is completely valid, and your arguments are based in reality.

I personally feel that unless we have a woman in office, there will be a lot less money put into the campaigns of women, and unfortunately, these campaigns take a boatload of money. You could totally make the same argument for a black man. I hope when the dust all settles that one of them is in the White House, because setting that precedent will make it easier for men and women of all races to compete for the top slot. I, for one, am tired of white men in red ties running my country. It's time for a new kind of face. It's time for every little boy and girl in this country to truly believe he or she could someday be president, to look at those faces ringing the walls of the classroom and see someone who looks like them.

We all have to choose how we will throw in our lots, but I do think it's important to keep in mind that support for Hillary doesn't mean lack of support for black men or women, just as support for Obama doesn't mean lack of support for women. Somewhere in there are also personal politics, and Obama and Hillary certainly aren't positioned the same on all of the issues.

Surrender, Dorothy - When I was your age, we just let them ride in the back window.

Submitted by Rita Arens on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 08:21

This Is A Very Valuable Discussion

No one likes to be taken for granted or ignored: black women by white feminists or white feminists by men.

Though of course I acknowledge there have been many white women who've had to work or struggle or raise children on their own, I agree with Faboo when she writes:

Black women have always had the need to be strong and stand up for themselves. Whether to protect ourselves or our familes, it needed to be done, so it got done. White women, especially those of financial privilege have never had to do that.

It's like when you've been struggling with losing a significant amount of weight all your life---something your skinny friend has never understood or been interested in---and suddenly that same friend starts talking about how horribly difficult it is for her to lose the ten pounds she's gained.

If she expects you to jump in and be all rah-rah and supportive, it would be perfectly understandable for you to feel like, where the hell have you been? I've been struggling with this for years. Get back to me when you're ready to hear me and you have something helpful to say.

Megan
BlogHer Contributing Editor
Personal Blog: Megan's Minute

Submitted by Megan Smith on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 09:26

I can't agree completely.

Whereas I know I'm from a place of privilege just by virtue of the fact that a rough month (or season, as is the current case) for me is still wealth for people in poverty the world over, and yes because I am a white person, I think it's too easy to say that an entire race of women doesn't understand and has not had to be strong and fight, either for themselves or for their families.

There are lots of things that set us apart from each other, both inclusive and exclusive of race and gender (class comes to mind, primarily) that can put us wildly in touch with what it's like to be privileged and not so much.

As an adult I have made it my business to have what are sometimes difficult conversations with people of color, male and female, so that I can understand their particular situations, experiences and outlooks better, and they can hopefully hear where I'm coming from as well. I've been quite honest that sometimes it feels too hard and awkward to do it, that I'm afraid I'll put my foot in my mouth or be accused of not getting it because I unwittingly say something wrong, but still we forge ahead together, because I don't care to live any other way. In fact, one of my most memorable exchanges at BlogHer this summer was with Valencia aka Content Black Woman, who's saying her piece about the Clintons this week. And I'm trying my best to get it now. It's difficult to read along sometimes and immediately feel compelled to defend yourself as a representative of an entire race (impossible) of people, many of whom DON'T get it, because I can't. I can only know what my particular lens reveals, and what I've come to understand from watching the world and the people I've come into contact with over the years.

It's funny, most of my black female friends IRL are Hillary supporters and my closest black male friend doesn't care for Obama. As you say, Megan, I think it's time we got back to the issues, because underneath it all we all live in the same country and it'd be nice if we had someone - anyone - qualified to lead it. If it's either one of these two individuals, may they take it all the way.

And by the way, I'm totally ready to hear you, and if I knew a helpful thing to say I'd say it. It's hard to know what that is sometimes, though. I think that it's great that we've gotten some conversation started in this forum.

Laurie
LaurieWrites

Submitted by lauriewrites on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 19:41

Yes, It Can All Be Very Difficult

Hi Laurie,

As I said in my comment, of course there are white women who've had to struggle, who've had to fight for their families and understand some of what black women face. And I appreciate your efforts in your own life to get a sense of where people of color are coming from. As difficult as it can be, I think the beginning of the dialogue can be as simple asking a black woman, "As a black woman, what issues concern you most in this election?"

It's interesting because when I read your comment:

It's difficult to read along sometimes and immediately feel compelled to defend yourself as a representative of an entire race (impossible) of people, many of whom DON'T get it, because I can't. I can only know what my particular lens reveals, and what I've come to understand from watching the world and the people I've come into contact with over the years.

I can't speak for all black women, but right or wrong, I always feel like I'm a representative of an entire race of people, and on the defensive when it appears we are being "attacked." Many black people will tell you, if something awful happens in the news, especially on the national level, the first thing they think is, how tragic, and the second thing they think is, I hope the perpetrator isn't black.

I used to joke that the film director Spike Lee was the media's appointed black representative for a while there. Black people are protesting in Atlanta? Let's book Spike to tell us what they want. Black people are spending more on gifts this Christmas? Let's book Spike to tell us why. I always used to chuckle and ask myself, "Who appointed Spike my mouthpiece?"

I know I'm rambling, but I guess what I'm getting at is we all need to be more sensitive to each other's points of view and if we can't do that, this is going to be a long and potentially divisive primary season.

Megan
Megan's Minute

Submitted by Megan Smith on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 08:40

What if we're just PEOPLE after all?

I would NEVER try to pretend that tremendous bias in media doesn't exist, or a hideous past of repression that has led to more subtle, but still pernicious, repression today.... BUT.... what IF people didn't choose to label themselves by their race? What if we could stop that feeling of "they're talking about me" even when they're not.

I watch the TV News (why, I don't know) and i see loads of idiot white folks blowing up meth labs and killing their kids, and each other and..... Most of the headlines here right now are white folks - the Carnation killings were white, the missing marine and her accused killer, Drew Peterson.... and it never occurs to me that they speak for me, or represent my race in any way. (I'm not even sure they represent my species, but that's a cynical comment and whole different conversation, because of course they do....)

I wonder if the downside of racial identity - for ANY race that tries to say we are "one people" - is that people actually begin to internalize that message in a way that puts them on the defensive, or causes assumptive and presumptive behavior.

Even if our skin were all the same color, we would still not be a homogeneous people. So how do we instill pride of heritage and still say to everyone "you are an individual....." How do we say "we're all one community" but "his actions are not a reflection nor a predictor of yours?"

I think - guess, hope - that we are entering a time when we need to accept that the isolated images we see in the media do not, in fact, represent an entire race of people. That individual responsibility and choice is paramount, and that part of the responsibility of an individual is to improve the lives of every individual in the community. Or at least do no harm....

We are each spokespeople for the human race. No more, no less. I would never hold you responsible for the acts of all black people, nor make assumptions about you because of the acts of other black people any more than i would want you to judge me by the actions of all white people.

So how do we stop the homogeneous thinking?

(If that sounded at all bitchy, it wasn't intended that way. I think you hit a chord, the "group think" mentality that we are all guilty of sometimes.... How do we get past that?)

___________
Alyssa Royse
JUST CAUSE
make some good news!
www.JustCauseIt.com

Submitted by alyssaroyse on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 09:14

Let Me Explain Myself Further

Hi Alyssa,

Part of the reason you may not feel that white criminals showcased in the media don't represent you is because there is such a broad range of images of white people out there. You've lived with them all your life. You've grown up around them and you expect them. And overwhelmingly they are positive or "normal" images. "Everyone" knows that those positive images are "what real white people are like."

During my life, I've been in situations where I've met white people who have barely been in the same room with a black person, much less met one. In that case, it's understandable that your first instinct is to make a good impression not only for yourself, but for your race. We shouldn't have to do that, and I don't particularly like that I feel that way, but there it is. Some black people in that situation might come in with an attitude of "the heck with you, I'm here, deal with it." But that goes back to the point that once again we all, black or white, have different personalities and can't be seen as a monolith.

The representation of black people in the media compared to who they really are and how the majority really live is grossly out of whack. Yes, there are wonderful representatives of the black community in the media, in some ways more than there ever used to be, but I think the prevailing gut feeling of white people consciously or not, is that those black people are the exception, not the rule.

I'm not a scientist but I think even if were we all of a homogeneous race, humans would find similarities within each other to bond with and differences to point out as bad. But because we are human beings and can think and rationalize, our challenge is to acknowledge our prejudices as we continue to fight them and try and build bridges.

And you didn't sound bitchy, but you're making my brain work overtime on very little sleep. :)

Megan
Megan's Minute

Submitted by Megan Smith on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 09:58

that's a great answer...

Thanks. it is interesting to me how much it is about perception.... Most of the examples of black people that I can think of in the media are really great..... But then, I'm not particularly hip in terms of "modern" media.

But i do think you're right on some pretty fundamental counts.

When confronted with something "foreign" we tend to try to attach meaning to it based on any "real" expression we have with that foreign object. In the case of people, if we know no black people in the real world, we will unconsciously attach meaning based on what we see in the media.... it an unfortunate truth. (And why I am trying so hard to make sure my daughter is exposed to REAL people of many races, orientations etc.... I'm convinced that's all that works.)

The need to attach meaning to things is uniquely human - it gets us in no end of trouble, but is also what propels us to our greatest heights of discovery and creation...

I totally agree that we all have more in common than we do that separates us. TOTALLY. I want to find a way to create dialog there. (Which is why i crates JUST CAUSE, ironically.)

As for the media celebrities... I dunno. My husband and I have a special room where we lock them all up. In my ming, OJ and Brittney are in that room together. They're neither black nor white, just idiot people who mad fools of themselves being stupid and brought down the lowest common denominator to a ridiculous level, despite having the chance to really do something great with their success. Special room is color blind. :)

Glad I don't sound bitchy. Big topics can be tough to discuss without the benefit of eye-contact and body language. In my mind though, we're all sitting in my living room drinking chap wine, eating good food and will surely solve this whole racial divide thing within the hour or so. :)
__________
Alyssa Royse
JUST CAUSE
make some good news!
www.JustCauseIt.com

Submitted by alyssaroyse on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 10:14

A Black Jewish Lesbian For President?

This has all been so painful for so many people. I want SO BADLY to be able to focus on the issues at hand, but feel like the pundits are taking all the power away from the actual issues and decorating candidates instead with their skin color and gender, as if that's what actually matters.

I was terribly upset when Gloria Stienem said that Obama's win in Iowa proved that gender is still a harder barrier to overcome than race.

Really? Is that what it meant. Or could it have meant that more people in Iowa liked his messages, proposals and ideas than they did Hillary's? Could it be that he won Iowa on merit, not skin color? Could it be that Hillary is being held accountable for a record that people in Iowa didn't like? Could it be that in both cases, it was their experience and actions that landed them in their respective positions.

What of Hillary's win in New Hampshire? Was that because she was a woman, or because people in NH liked her experience and her messages? Could she win on merit but lose on gender?

I am THRILLED that we have a presidential race in which we have a woman, a black man and a mormon as legitimate contenders. (And that this is the firs election my daughter is old enough to be aware of.) But I would like it a whole lot more if those things were discussed in an "oh, by the way" manner rather than as the headline. Especially since none of the candidates have chosen to lead their campaigns with, "i am black" or "i am a woman."

Yes, things have gotten inevitably a tad snarky (sit down, it's only going to get worse,) but you would think that we could realize that we need someone who can lead a country - their genitals and skin color shouldn't matter.

No, I"m not that naive, but i want to be. And it starts with us - collectively - staying focused on the issues. And when the media nd pundits want to bring the dialog back down, we just bring it back up.

And no, I haven't decided who I want to vote for yet. I'm working on my own Frankencandidate, little bits of each of them. So, right now i have a dalmatian spotted, cross-gendered, religious minority kinda thing happening. And it's working for me.
___________
Alyssa Royse
JUST CAUSE
make some good news!
www.JustCauseIt.com

Submitted by alyssaroyse on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 15:40

It was ignorance...

Do you want to know why I didn't separate women from black women in my original post? When I wrote the post on thirtysomething women, I didn't mean to create a fissure between white women and black. I actually assumed women (all women) were included in the calculus of benefiting from a woman being in office.

Am I too ignorant? Too privileged, as you say, to take others' views into account? I don't know. This discussion has prompted so much thinking- I don't even know what to say.
I do know this: race and gender are erupting in our discourse right now. Look at the headlines. Bob Johnson of BET's comment about something in the neighborhood- Obama vs. Hillary and MLK....So we're part of something greater when we have this discussion. And that's a good thing.

I have so many questions I want to ask you Fabooj, about your experience, and your feelings. This whole discussion has made me feel naive- but still proud of where I stand. I'm sorry, but women are the majority in this country and this world. I cannot understand the black part of your identity, but I can understand the need for the female majority to be better represented- by the person I think is the best candidate!

Submitted by Morra Aarons Mele on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 17:58

Morra, there are so many layers here...

Let me try to peel the onion a bit.

If you want to make the argument that Hillary Clinton is the best candidate for [all] women because her policies will advance our interest, that's a stronger point of departure for me than focusing on the symbolism of having a female president. Why? Because if we assume that both Clinton and Obama would be good candidates (which is what I infer when one argues that the symbolism of picking Clinton is what makes her the best), then we set aside the symbolic value of picking Obama.

And for many black women, the symbolic value of picking Obama is strong. Black women, especially mothers, want their daughters to see powerful female role models, but our daughters are doing better than our sons and that has us worried. Black women leaders have been organizing themselves on behalf of black men for more than a century. Then, we spoke out because the men were being lynched. Now, they are being miseducated, incarcerated and murdered in disproportionate numbers.

I read Obama's Dreams for My Father and saw so many young black boys and men I know in his youthful confusion. I kept thinking of the males in my life to whom I wanted to give the book, to beg them to read it. And I thought Obama gave a great speech after his Iowa victory, but can I just tell you the part of the speech that first made me shed involuntary tears? When he thanked, "the love of my life, the rock of the Obama family...Michelle Obama!"

I am so battered by so many years of seeing black men portrayed as sex-crazed Mandingos and black women as their slaves. I am so tired of this hetero-hypermasculine madness, manufactured by white supremacists and perpetuated by black opportunists, that threatens to kill my son, nephew, brother, father, and all of the men I hold dear. You see, the men in my family aren't thugs, but that isn't protection against a rogue police officer, or some confused teenaged gang member who carries his self-esteem in a pipe or pistol.

And yes, yes I want little black girls to know that they can be President, but hey, Michelle Obama is one heck of a role model, too.

But...

When I finally vote in my state's primary, I won't be voting for a symbol. I will be voting for the person I think is best suited to lead this country. Hillary Clinton's got a gift for policy analysis, there is no doubt about that. In his short time in the Senate, Barack Obama demonstrated the ability to work effectively across party lines. John Edwards has a consistent record of populism that commends itself, as well as a strong and active record during his Senate term.

That's why I find the race-baiting that Hillary's surrogates are engaged in particularly dispiriting. She did the right thing when she got rid of Bill Shaheen for bringing up Obama's past drug use, but so far, I haven't seen a repudiation of Bob Johnson's remarks. I hope that will be forthcoming.

Kim
BlogHer Contributing Editor|Professor Kim|

Submitted by Kim Pearson on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 20:45

Kim, can you explain

Kim, can you explain this statement to me? I'm trying to understand what you are referring to:

I am so tired of this hetero-hypermasculine madness, manufactured by white supremacists and perpetuated by black opportunists, that threatens to kill my son, nephew, brother, father, and all of the men I hold dear.

I am interested in the "manufactured by white supremacists and perpetuated by black opportunists" part especially.
___________
Alyssa Royse
JUST CAUSE
make some good news!
www.JustCauseIt.com

Submitted by alyssaroyse on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 21:00

Heterohypermasculinity as a byproduct of
white supremacy

Hi Alyssa,
Sure, I'll try to explain as concisely as possible. Let's start with the premise that race is a social construction, and that while sex is biological, the way we act out gender is a social construction as well. We know that males in western culture have historically been socialized to exercise power through aggression, etc. We also know that at the time that the Western democracies were created, there was a need to rationalize the ownership and subjugation of fellow human beings. A racist ideology emerged, buttressed by pseudoscience and selective use of Scripture.

There are so many examples of the artifacts created to instill and buttress this ideology, Linnaeus' racial classifications in the 18th century, Jefferson's "Notes on the State of Virginia," the popular book, "The Negro, A Beast" (which is still online), Hegel's claim that Africa had contributed nothing to history (which he knew was a lie), Birth of a Nation, Gone With the Wind, the "Hottentot Venus," the Bell Curve, and so on. White supremacist thinking is deep in the culture, and we are ever having to identify it and root it out.

How is it manifest today?The "Black Acting School" segment of Robert Townsend's "Hollywood Shufle" still rings too true for many of the black actors I know. Watch Byron Hurts' Hip-Hop Beyond Beats and Rhymes and you'll hear established and aspiring rappers say they are accessing the masculine power that is available to them -- and that is expected of them.Remember that the primary consumers of those images are not black. And part of the reason they do it is because Bob Johnson, backed by John Malone and other conservative, big money interests, created a network that was willing to traffic in modern-day minstrelsy of the worst order.

But it also manifests in laissez-faire racism -- a brand of racism that is not feuled by anti-black hatred, but by a belief that differences in sociological status are the result of the deficiencies of black and brown people, and not the result of ongoing disparities in health care, education, criminal justice and civil rights. [Check out Vernellia Randall's book, Dying While Black, for example, for more on the health care crisis.]

For more, I recommend Mark Anthony Neal's New Black Man, or Patricia Hill Collins' Black Sexual Politics.

Does that help?

Kim

Kim
BlogHer Contributing Editor|Professor Kim|

Submitted by Kim Pearson on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 22:13

That was awesome, thanks!

Yes, that helps a lot, and is a conversation that desperately needs to be had by all of us.

The initial image that came to my mind when i read that sentence was the opening Prologue of Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison (which will be required reading by everyone, when i get made god.)

i think it's the laissez faire aspect that most interests me now, as i think that's where we both do the most damage and have the most opportunity to grow.

but i also do wonder - and i'm not trying to be inflammatory or accusatory or anything else - at what point do we say, "yeah, history and culture started this, but we're keeping it going?" i guess this is where the Ralph Ellison thing comes to mind - all those hip hop / rappers flashing their bling for the frat boys.... i dunno, it seems so garishly unbalanced to me. They think they're on top (with all the bling, cars, etc.. hallmarks of the "opressor" culture,) not realizing they've sold their souls and identities to entertain as a modern day minstrel. Further, they're enforcing the idea that this behavior, which is killing people by the droves, is good, positive, "Successful."

But who's to "blame" in that equation?

It's all very confusing to me. But if you're (we're) up for a dialog, I think it would be great to have. (probably a different thread....)

What do "we" do? What does an upper middle class white woman do? How can we create a dialog that invites people in from all sides - as i think it would be very foolish for any of us to believe that we are not part of both the problem and the solution.

thanks for your answer. yes, it was just what i was looking for....

but now what?
___________
Alyssa Royse
JUST CAUSE
make some good news!
www.JustCauseIt.com

Submitted by alyssaroyse on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 22:16

You're welcome, but it's not about blame

Hi Alyssa,
If you can stay with me for a moment, I think we're still on the same thread.

I too love Invisible Man, but I would require reading it alongside The Souls of Black Folk.

Du Bois' essential point is that our self-definition, and our sense of agency, comes not only from our sense of individual identity, but from the interaction between self and the larger social system. In this culture, our social system is grounded in a history of racism that doesn't just constrain me, it constrains you too. That's part of what I was getting at in my comments on Maria's amazing post on this issue. Remember when white civil rights activists were condemned for being "n------ lovers?" That's about policing whiteness in order to preserve a white supremacist system.

Whose to blame? Of course, rappers are responsible for their behavior. So is the education system that miseducated them. So are the parents, to the degree that they had any influence. But those frat boys are miseducated, too, and they too have parents, teachers, etc. And each one of those record labels has corporate parents, etc.

Ultimately, it's not about blame.It's about dismantling a social structure that damages all of us. But in order to do that, we have to see it for what it is. That is what it will take to get to a conversation about the candidates' merits on policy, because the symbols won't be necessary.

Kim
BlogHer Contributing Editor|Professor Kim|

Submitted by Kim Pearson on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 06:48

blame was the wrong word

Yes, I'm quite sure we're on the same page... blame was the wrong word to use (it was late-ish, i was tired...)

I'm quite sure we're on the same page....

I used to teach in the juvenile detention system in Saint Louis. Most of my students we're incarcerated black "boys" who were utterly swept up in all of this so intractably that they genuinely did not see choices. And i don't doubt the legitimacy of their not seeing them, it's hard to make a choice top speak a different language than anyone around you, just because you want to....

I am just always looking for solutions, and starting point of discussions that begin with dismantling the "us and them" and instead focus on "well damn, here we are, what now...."

And I don't know the answer..... I know that I was born white and privileged, and, while I don't feel guilty about it, I do feel that I am often left out of discussions about what we (as a society) can do, or what it is to struggle or....

So I quietly go about raising my daughter. Go out of my way to put her in a public school where she will be exposed to diversity and that will become pat of her fabric. To discuss media imagery, invite diversity into our home and our life. Some part of me thinks that's enough - that her generation may be the first one that really has a chance to make it all a "lifestyle" rather than an "initiative...."

But I still think there must be more.
___________
Alyssa Royse
JUST CAUSE
make some good news!
www.JustCauseIt.com

Submitted by alyssaroyse on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 08:24

You talk of being left out

On Sunday, I had a conference cal/web meeting with various women of color, all age, education and economic scales discussing this issue with the campaign. The youngest was 18 year old college student (mom of 3 kids). The oldest was my aunt who is almost 70. There were 23 women on the call. We were about an hour into the call before someone realized that there were no white females represented. Not even a half-white person. I asked why. My cousin, said, "Well, if we had a white person on the call, would we talk freely? Could we without hurting someone's feelings?" There were mumbles of 'no'.

I mentioned that it was odd, the fact that we were discussing how people like Steinem may view us (as non-contemporaries, that is) and yet, not one of us actually considered inviting our own Steinem. I know that my best friend, who is white, would have loved being on the call and could have contributed a lot. She grew up in a poor, Latino neighborhood and that was all she knew before moving to the burbs down south. Yet, for whatever reason, it didn't cross my mind to invite her to the call.

When I talked to her about it, she said the same thing you did. That now she's feeling left out of discussions. People see her blond hair/green eyes and assume a lot about her. She knows that at her school she's excluded from issues handling a Latino kid even though she speaks Spanish and could probably read the child better than any of the other teachers. She knows that the black teachers don't think she'll "get it" when they discuss certain things. She said, "After my first year at that school, I spent the next two years trying to establish my 'person of color' creds. It didn't make me more accessible, it made me look like I was desperately saying, 'But my best friends are black!'." It's been really frustrating for her and I hadn't even realized it because she's always been my chica. Now extend that out to white females who aren't my best friend, or I don't even know.

On the flip of that, I know that I'm excluded because of my race or my economic status or my education. I'm excluded by everyone, including black women. So, I completely get how you feel.

Submitted by fabooj on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 17:07

We're all outsiders

Damn, that was beautiful. thanks.

Somehow, we've all, as a culture, been so busy identifying ourselves that we've alienated everyone else. huh. there's a whole of of "us and them" going on and not enough "we."

thanks for your reply. it was thoughtful and right on.

assumptions are dangerous things.
___________
Alyssa Royse
JUST CAUSE
make some good news!
www.JustCauseIt.com

Submitted by alyssaroyse on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 19:31

I understand

Funny, but your post started a whole other thing on my friend's listserv among the 40+ crowd. Regardless of age, they focused on the age thing. It just goes to show that there are so many different dynamics and facets that there isn't one person in the world who could write something that encompasses everyone. Unless they right about stubbing a toe. LOL!!!

Submitted by fabooj on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 16:38

This is a Valuable Discussion Indeed!

Hi to All Here:

I saw I was linked to this discussion and I am so pleased to see the honesty, candor and valued perspective. We each are the mere sum total of our experiences.

Leave it to women to keep it real and make it plain.

A big shout out to Laurie and the other great women I had a chance to meet in Chicago this past summer. That experience changed my life - for the better. My blog and my life hasn't been the same.

Let's continue to communicate and dialogue for a better society for each and every one of us, our families and our communities.

Peace & Blessings to you all,

CBW

Submitted by ContentBlackWoman on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 20:22

There you are!

So glad you found your way here. I knew your voice would fit beautifully into the discussion. : )

Laurie
LaurieWrites

Submitted by lauriewrites on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 20:50

How helpful might it be...

If people could be introspective enough to remember a time when they were "the one" representing some segment?

As I was reading some of the more recent comments in this thread, I started to think about how many situations I've been in where I had to represent some segment, not because I was in FACT representative of that segment, but because I was the only present in a certain setting, so it was de facto falling on me.

Example: Jewish at a Catholic university. Even I only knew two other Jews at a major university of thousands and only one Jewish friend. That was fine with me - but what was interesting was, since so many of my classmates had only been in Catholic school all their life, they'd never met a Jew or many Jews before, and so I became iconic to them. The fact that I'm blonde and don't have a New York accent threw them for a while but when they learned I was Jewish, bingo - it was, "I've never met a Jew before" time.

Another example: female political blogger - who doesn't live in a basement or write in her pajamas (ok, sometimes on deadline I do both but you know..). I interact a lot with traditional jouralists in my area and the first time I went to an editorial board meeting at the local large metro paper, this is not a joke: one of the senior editors asked, So, how DO bloggers feed themselves?

Well - I don't represent all bloggers, all political bloggers or all female political bloggers. But to the traditional MSM folks I was meeting, they saw me as representing ALL BLOGGERS.

So - I just wanted to use those two examples to prod people to think about: when has your independence from an otherwise bigger group made you realize, Huh? They think I represent that group?? Nuh-uh.

Around the Ohio political 'sphere, I'm well known for being loved and hated by the Ohio Democratic Party - because I refuse to be a party girl. But...conservative bloggers and pundits don't care about how much I deviate from party lines - they want to attribute it all to when I write.

So - again - my point here was to kind of induce an exercise - everyone must go through something like this at one time or another, where others think you represent some group, but you know better. That should be a lesson to all of us as to just how important differences can be too - not necessarly in a negative way, but just enough to say, we're not ALL like that - and that's a good thing.

Hope that makes sense.

Jill
Writes Like She Talks

Submitted by Jill Miller Zimon on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 11:38

Point well taken, and, but....

I think you're right, and there is certainly something humbling in thinking that what you do does represent a world larger than you.

BUT, what I really want is for that not to be the case. Understand that your actions IMPACT others, but do not necessarily represent them.

My most current case in point was the blog post i wrote called, "I resolve to NOT want to lose weight." In it, i discuss being almost 40, my body not looking anything like it did when i was in my 20's - sagging, puffing, drooping, dripping - and still feeling happy and proud and free in it. The picture that i originally included with the post was of me at Burning Man in a goofy outfit that really could only be worn by someone who was comfortable in her body. There wasn't much to it - but a lot more than a bikini, for reference.....

The outcry was massive.

1. As a representative of women business leaders, i should not be seen in such an outfit.
2. As a small woman (i'm a szie 2) i have no business discussing body image.

I was slack-jawed. I am not a representative of all women in business. I am me. And if i represent anything larger than that, it is that women - even those of us who run businesses with investment capital - are multi-faceted. We are smart, sexy, fun, generous, sharp, gentle etc.... And I want to be seen as ALL of those things. So does my behavior impact others? I hope so. The impact I hope to have is to help create a world in which we can all be EVERYTHING that we are without shame. Part of what I am is someone who likes to go to Burning Man, walk around in a pink wig and nothing else, and that's okay. (And no, i didn't put that picture on the web site.)

The other one, about my being too small to have body image issues, really concerned me. After all, most of our struggles are more universal than we think. We have all grown up and are bombarded by the same issues. In fact, the fact that even I am impacted by those messages was precisely the point - we have created a cadre of iconic images such that NONE OF US are ever good enough.... our images are so distorted that nothing even vaguely real resonates as being "good."

These are, of course, not race issues - which is where this thread started - but to your point, we do hold individuals responsible for representing their "group," without giving them the affirmative dignity of self identity or the responsibility of claiming their impact.

And it supports the idea that we have each decided what a "struggle" is, and tend not to legitimate anyone who's struggle is different than our own.
___________
Alyssa Royse
JUST CAUSE
make some good news!
www.JustCauseIt.com

Submitted by alyssaroyse on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 14:50

I wasn't as artful as I thought, I think!

What you wrote here "BUT, what I really want is for that not to be the case. Understand that your actions IMPACT others, but do not necessarily represent them." was exactly what I was intending to imply/have you infer. Sorry about that!! Long-windedness can be an affliction of mine. lol

But yes - that is exactly the point I was trying to make. Thank you for making it/clarifying it for me.

Jill
Writes Like She Talks

Submitted by Jill Miller Zimon on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 16:31

that's why conversations matter

i almost never get it right the first time. :) it's only when we all chew on things outloud that we can see out own trains of thought and hitch a ride. :)
___________
Alyssa Royse
JUST CAUSE
make some good news!
www.JustCauseIt.com

Submitted by alyssaroyse on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 19:28

Thanks :)

Also not like this isn't a tangly web of ideas and experiences. I always say blogs are like HDTV - because you get to look sooooo closely. I love it.

Jill
Writes Like She Talks

Submitted by Jill Miller Zimon on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 19:55

It makes a lot of sense

It seems that I'm always the representative

The black person.
The black female.
The college educated black person.
The college educated black female.
The Muslim person.
The Muslim female.
The Muslim females who's Sunni AND Black.
The black female married to a non-black man.
The mom.
The black mom.
The black mom who lived in an upscale neighborhood (that was before I blessedly moved).
The mom of biracial kids (I actually detest this category the most)
The hetero person (as most of my friends are LGB and/orT)
The WAHM
And yes, the blogger.

I completely get trying not to be THE representative. It's a lot of pressure and you don't want to make an impression on someone to give them the wrong idea about that sub-group. It gets to the point where, I have to drive home that sometimes I'm talking about ME and my experiences.

Submitted by fabooj on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 16:46

Exactly

And then you also want people to realize that if you're not the stereotype they were expecting, chances are, whomever they think is in that stereotype shouldn't be thought about that way either.

Thanks for sharing all those categories! Wow. When we think about, there are so many aren't there?

Me. How about just the category of "me" - Joan Armatrading, Me Myself I - still something I blare.

Jill
Writes Like She Talks

Submitted by Jill Miller Zimon on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 19:58

Race or Gender which carries more weight?

This conversation is rich and this is what I love about this political season- that so many people are having these types of conversations.
I would add that I am fine with folks voting their gender or their race. What I am not fine with is the notion to do so is some emotional psychosis. Look, for the last 20 years...and I am 44 years old, I have heard that women ought to pull together, Black people ought to pull together. We all join groups and clubs based on our comfort levels and gender. I am in a Sorority--the largest African American Sorority in the world, Delta Sigma Theta, Inc. Carol Mosely Braun is my sorority Sister and she ran for President--she is Black and a woman. The problem I am having with all of this is the notion that women have a candidate they can rally behind in Hillary Clinton and somehow she isn't good enough? African Americans have a candidate they can rally around and somehow he isn't good enough. If it were solely about qualifications and likeability we all would vote with our eyes closed. But now we have to ask ourselves the hard questions--will having a woman in the oval office further womens issues? And what the fuck are women's issues? Will having a Black man in the Oval Office undo 400 years of oppression, predjudice, racism and a general maligning of all things Black in America? This moment is what we all have worked for and we are here and we are uncomfortable with it. I am even fine with that becuse now we have to deal with our hidden racism and our gender exclusions. And for Black women this is difficult. My other Soror, Paula Giddings wrote a book--"when and where I enter" meaning when and where I renter so does the race. Barack has the weight of the entire Balck community on his shoulders--13-15 million of us! and Hillary has to represent women dead and or alive. And the reality is THEY CAN"T and that is what hurts and that is why we are having all this drama. No one can be all things to all people 24/7, but we can't hear that and we can't accept that.

As I said this is rich. This conversation is worth having and continuing through-out the election.

Love,
Babz
www.lovebabz.blogspot.com Perosnal
www.lovebabz08.wordpress.com Political

Submitted by Lovebabz on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 17:08

I love this comment

Babz I think you just clearly stated to me exactly why I am still undecided. Watching people become uncomfortable with these topics, challenging each other...I love it. And I for one am firmly grounded in both candidate's ability to lead, their politics, and their race and gender. I can't ignore it because it is NOT a non-issue in our country. I wish it was, but it's not.

To me their resume's and stances on issues are close enough that I'm forced to think of the bigger picture for our culture and society as a whole and I am very sure that is a valid reason of influence on my vote. Politicians are politicians, I want to know if this will really change anything. I'm hoping, and I think well rounded discussions like we are having proves there is at least something in the air.

Erin

Politics & News Contributing Editor
Queen of Spain

Submitted by Erin Kotecki Vest on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 18:22

I represent....

Yep me too, now add:

Black Mother of adopted children

Felon/White Collar Criminal---How many Black women do you know are white collar criminals...overall less than 1% of the 5-14% of federal criminals

Chef--how many Black women do you know are formally trained chefs.

Was elected to public office in a New England State.

I have dread locs and I am not of carribean descent and I do not do drugs.

I am the odd Sister out...all the fucking time. (sigh)

And sometimes I have to represent becasue if not, there would be no one at the table. And the prevailing stereotypes would go unchecked and unchallenged. "When and where I enter so goes the Race"

I walked to the furtile crescent and built the spinx...

Love,
Babz
www.lovebabz.blogspot.com Personal
www.lovebabz08.wordpress.com Politcal

Submitted by Lovebabz on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 17:20